To think this is the WHOLE POINT of tax?

[wheresmymojo]

Daily Fail are frothing today that higher earners pay more tax, and lower earners get more out in various benefits than they pay in.

I thought even the DF understood that the entire point of tax, it's whole reason for existing, is to re-distribute wealth to some extent with the wealthier paying more so that the less wealthy can benefit from a better standard of living?

Have I missed something - are there people who don't know this is what tax is fundamentally supposed to do?

I mean, I'm being fairly genuine...are there actually people who think it's like a bank account and you 'pay in' to 'get out'?

But it does sometimes bother me that we both work 12 hour days to maintain the high responsibility jobs we have, whereas lower earners often don't have the same levels of stress and crazy relentless hours. But we choose to do the jobs we have.

You could always suggest that your job is cut in half. So two people could earn half your salary and do a reasonable amount of work each.

I also want to add if you are a higher rate tax payer and are feeling the pinch, it’s because the ultra wealthy (not usually by income but very large inherited wealth and businesses that profit whilst paying low tax and low wages) are not paying enough. The middle classes should feel a bit hard done by at the moment, but the people to be looking to are not those with even less than yourself (some muddling along with self medicated childhood trauma, ill health and poor housing) but the ultra wealthy who are taking us all for mugs.

It is shocking. And not because people are receiving benefits. It’s that half the country are.

We ourselves would be eligible, but as a director it’s very confusing and no one can agree whether dividends are earned income or unearned. So we won’t claim as don’t want to risk having to pay back and be more in the shit.

Minimum wage is clearly not high enough.

Taxes should be paid to pay for public spending; and to support those who have fallen on tough times.

If half the country have fallen on tough times that’s not good.

GrumpyPanda

But they don't in fact receive more than they pay. That would only be true if you add the disclaimer "with regard to income tax". Once you add in consumption taxes, the pictures changes since those are by their very nature regressive: poor households spend a much higher proportion of their income on consumption (no spare cash to save and invest), hence pay out a higher proportion in VAT than high earners

Oh, I don’t disagree. Bottom line is that when working people have to claim top ups simply to survive, something is very badly wrong.
Some employers have been getting away with too much, for too long.

But they don't in fact receive more than they pay. That would only be true if you add the disclaimer "with regard to income tax". Once you add in consumption taxes, the pictures changes since those are by their very nature regressive: poor households spend a much higher proportion of their income on consumption (no spare cash to save and invest), hence pay out a higher proportion in VAT than high earners

In absolute terms though, they do receive more than they pay. I agree, the proportion they pay in VAT is higher. But in absolute terms, if you earn £20k pa and spend 100% of it on goods and services, attracting VAT at 20%, you pay £4k in tax. Which if you have a school aged child, doesn't cover the £7k the state pays for your child's education. So they do receive more than they pay.

There always will be a small proportion of free loaders. I don't really care, if tolerating them means that all the children are fed.

@horseyhorsey17

You don't think people on low wages work long hours and have job stress?! Have you MET a nurse?

@Scottishgirl85 said OFTEN....she's not saying no-one on low wages has stressful jobs. The majority of people referenced in the article will either not be working at all or be on low hours with min. wage.

A full time nurse working long hours isn't likely to get more in benefits than what they pay in income tax.

I’m pretty sure that’s the case. My state pension is definitely more than I pay in tax. Having said that, I was a higher rate tax payer for over 20 years and my deductions paid for the two previous generations’ pensions so I don’t feel too guilty. I’d happily pay more tax for better public services.

There always will be a small proportion of free loaders. I don't really care, if tolerating them means that all the children are fed.

This is the perfect way of putting it! I'm going to be stealing that phrasing.

Absolutely agree. It’s scaremongering at best.

I think we all need to remember that literally today something can happen that changes the course of our lives and we could be reliant on benefits for the next six decades. So perhaps expecting only what you’ve put in isn’t the wisest stance.

Totally agree! Also the social contract exists partly as a form of insurance - in case you are one of the unlucky ones who falls on hard times - BUT I would also far rather live in a society that genuinely cared well for its elderly/ vulnerable etc (at which we regularly fail unfortunately).

One thing that has struck me though is that there is a real problem that it feels like there's an attitude from eg Tory chair Nadhim Zahawi that tax is for the little people (ie the working and middle classes, small businesses etc) and not for either people like him or giant businesses like Amazon.

This. And to provide a safety net for people. It's gone way beyond that now though.

No, we pay tax to fund the public services that everyone uses. Taxes are our contribution to (in theory) a civilised, safe, well-working society.

My husband and I work full time. He earns a low-ish salary, mine is middle. We don't receive any benefits. We are trying to save for a house deposit, and we would get there much faster if we could keep more of the money we earn. Instead, we get the impression that a lot of our taxes seem to get spaffed up the wall.

We've got lots of job vacancies in this country, and lots of fit, able people who seem to be drawing benefits. And there seems to be a lot of people working 15 hours a week and having their incomes topped up by the taxpayer. My taxes seem to be subsiding huge corporations and allowing them to make massive profits by paying their staff peanuts.

I would like to know why the king is exempt from inheritance tax? We all pay ALL of our taxes and yet here is the RF with multiple houses and assets not paying inheritance tax🤔

Because he’s the king, seems to be a good enough reason 🤯

This is typical DM. They’ll be harrumphing about “benefits spongers” again soon.

What do people who want cuts, think will happen to society if we cut things further?

Oh, and one extra thing that has always struck me

The superrich who argue for low taxes and a small state are often the exact people who actually profit most from the state - but it's in ways that they don't think of.

So... It's expensive to have the rule of law, well-maintained roads, but also laws around eg intellectual property and a legal system to defend those interests.

Bill Gates said something a little similar - that he had to exist in the kind of society that could create Microsoft - ie one with a good education system etc. It isn't yet possible - though let's hope this changes - to do that if you grow up in rural poverty in say Zimbabwe.

They can't blame EU membership anymore, so it's back to the poor, disabled and single mothers!

Totally agree with this. Taking the company I work for as an example, the top 3 executives have had pay rises and bonuses this year that far out-strip the (less than inflation) pay rises and bonuses given to the rest of the staff.

Meaningful wage increases (I believe at least partially paid for by them taking less) would mean far less colleagues who need to rely on benefits, food banks etc.

However, as that will never happen, taxing the higher earners goes some way to helping fund the additional benefits needed at the bottom. It shouldn’t be like this, but it is.

Yet the cost of living crisis is global.
I that the conservatives too.

Although I do feel the salaries-wages-income in this country is comparatively low to outgoings. Most sectors are struggling to pay a decent liveable salary.
£30000 was the defacto average, unfortunately, the baseline now needs to be £40000.

orbitalcrisis · Today 11:03
They can't blame EU membership anymore, so it's back to the poor, disabled and single mothers!“

Yep. These Sunny Uplands, great aren’t they 🙄

Good!

I am finding this thread the most incredulous thread I have ever seen on MN. And that is saying something!

I cannot believe, that as a country, people are so far into the benefit system, that they even no longer know what tax is actually for!

How do they think governemnet services are paid for? The money tree?

Yes I know that there will always be people who need help from the government. But I had no idea people are now so far from reality about how things work. And dont work.

The media will have a field day with this thread.

the problem is that if you can keep more of what we earn, so can we. My DH and I increased our earnings by a combined £34k this year. We would be using this to buy a bigger flat and to fund childcare fees. DH's increase in salary is constricted by 40% tax. If it wasn't, we would probably be buying an even more expensive property and the fact that we have equity in our current flat would mean that we push up house prices even more. That would mean that you are even further from buying the property you want even if you can keep more of the taxes you pay. If you get £100, and the rich get £10,000, you have become poorer.

Have they always have been?

I dont know enough about it, but there are some very archaic[if that is the right word], extremely old laws about it all.