To think this is the WHOLE POINT of tax?

[wheresmymojo]

Daily Fail are frothing today that higher earners pay more tax, and lower earners get more out in various benefits than they pay in.

I thought even the DF understood that the entire point of tax, it's whole reason for existing, is to re-distribute wealth to some extent with the wealthier paying more so that the less wealthy can benefit from a better standard of living?

Have I missed something - are there people who don't know this is what tax is fundamentally supposed to do?

I mean, I'm being fairly genuine...are there actually people who think it's like a bank account and you 'pay in' to 'get out'?

Agree @Rainsdropskeepfalling - jobs need to actually pay enough to live on. It's all very well taking about business profit but it's not helping the economy much if it's reliant on paying hundreds of thousands of people so little that they can't contribute economically. We don't need more millionaires or billionaires,,we need millions more people who can contribute to the economy.

You can't have a state where more people take out, than put in. It's basic maths. The size the state has become is unworkable and expecting the top 10% to pay more and more in tax to fund everything is not the way to drive much needed growth. I don't know what the answer is, but we're currently not generating enough as a nation to pay for what everyone wants. It's a ticking time bomb.

Also I am one of the top 10% of earners (probably, haven't looked up recently but assume so or definitely too 15%) and I'm not bothered.

Most of the people I work with fall within top 10-15% and are equally fine about it.

I suspect this 'top 10%' argument is driven largely by the top 1% of greedy motherfuckers who are already left with more than anyone needs.

These figures never include the huge benefits that the wealthy receive, eg roads to transport their goods, being able to get away with a few security guards rather than needing to raise a small army to protect their goods, having educated workers on tap, having healthy workers available ….

This, I was always under the belief it’s to fund public services, not to ‘redistribute wealth from
rich to poor’ although I suppose it’s pretty much the same thing unless everyone pays the same amount every year regardless of earnings.

@Throwncrumbs on here people put it’s ‘not worth me working more cos they cut my benefits’ there is no incentive to better yourself when someone else’s higher tax is keeping you.

I am one of these people. I do understand the dilemma. You have to ask yourself what would you do though, in that position? Would you work those extra hours where you in effect you get paid a couple of pounds an hour for doing them, especially in situation where you would need to pay childcare for doing so?

The system doesn't seem to have a tier or incentive for working more, it's bizarre.
Minimum wage employers know that the wages will more than likely get topped up by universal credit. There is no incentive for them to pay better.
There should be financial incentives to help gain qualifications that would get you out of the system. Maybe there are some.
I will say it's absolutely not an easy life when you're in this situation - you do what you need to to survive, and bettering yourself is not always an option with dependants or other personal circumstances.

‘Healthy workers’? 2.5 million are off for long term sickness. Quite a significant number.

We have a huge wealth discrepancy

Ease that and other stuff falls into place

Which means short term taxing wealth one way or another and using it for things that lead to growth - investment in battery factories for example

No, your understanding is wrong. Tax ISN'T to redistribute wealth. It's to pay for public services etc. You're thinking of Robin Hood.

But income tax isn't the only tax. There is also corporation tax, whatever tax people pay for dealing shares, VAT that businesses pay, national insurance that businesses pay.
It's fine that individuals 'take' more than they pay in.

And if you pay £0 income tax, then getting child benefit only will make you someone that gets more from the state than you pay in.
I'm not bothered about someone getting £20 a week tbh.

And surely nearly all pensioners get more from the state than the pay in tax?

purpledalmation · Today 10:01
Giving extra to low earners who struggle is perfectly acceptable. Disabled, elderly, sick people all deserve help. However it is disingenuous to not admit there is a small proportion of the population who won't work. These infuriate taxpayers and genuine people in need alike. The focussing on them directs away from genuine claimants Overall taxation works“

Very few with unemployment at a record low. The feckless poor narrative just doesn’t work anymore.

🤣🤣🤣

I did work extra hours to earn more money as when my kids were younger there was no UC, as a single mum in the 80’s there was no childcare element, I worked and got no help from the government whatsoever, if I wanted or needed it I worked, it was bloody hard but I had to house, clothe and feed my child by myself. It’s what you had to do. I bettered myself, and eventually bought a house, no one was going to give me one! People nowadays expect everything given to them instead of working long hours for it, then playing the blame game!

So many of those receiving benefits do so due to the high cost of renting a home.

How can so many full time employed people, often 2 adults working earn so little they need benefits to pay rent. Even if it's just partial help towards rent.

Agreed! @Throwncrumbs But won't be popular amongst the socialists, who will blame: the system, politics, companies, high earners for being so greedy for working hard for their money, everyone else but themselves.

Knew someone would state this. A pension isn’t a benefit, a lot of people never collect a pension because they die before collecting it, but pay tax all their life, my own father died a few months before he was due to retire and worked all his life. His pension died with him. My sister on the other hand has always lived on benefits, she’s looking forward to collecting her pension in the next couple of years, something she has never paid into but is still ‘entitled’ too. Her own kids are playing the system now, minimum hours for maximum benefits!

I think we do need to be aware of how much tax is generated and the fact that it doesn’t cover the “outgoings” for the majority of people. Many people say “I pay my tax, I am entitled to….” without understanding that what they pay is not covering the services they access. With an ageing population it is vital that we all understand this so we know why pension ages are increasing and why taxes have to be increased.

But this article

1. includes pensioners - of course the majority will be drawing out more than they put in currently 🤦‍♀️
2. has been calculated based on income tax only - not NI contributions too. So based on 20% , not the newly 30% that ni would take it too. Silly when ni is there to specifically support some of these “benefits ”

it is published by a paper that pays no uk tax at all. None. Remember that. Its proprietor donates huge sums to the Tory party.

Did they happen to mention that Viscount Rothermere (owner of the Daily Mail) doesn't pay UK tax because of his non-dom status? Are they counting him among the something-for-nothings?

Knew someone would state this. A pension isn’t a benefit, a lot of people never collect a pension because they die before collecting it, but pay tax all their life, my own father died a few months before he was due to retire and worked all his life. His pension died with him. My sister on the other hand has always lived on benefits, she’s looking forward to collecting her pension in the next couple of years, something she has never paid into but is still ‘entitled’ too. Her own kids are playing the system now, minimum hours for maximum benefits!“

Our taxes don’t pay for our own pensions. They cover the services we use during our working lives and the pensions/benefits of others.

The biggest time bomb in the UK is the lack of young, working people coming into the country. Brexit. Bloody disaster. Thankfully, people are finally realising. Latest polling showing that 72% believe we should rejoin.

Sadly, don’t think the EU would take us back now. Don’t suppose we meet the criteria.

So an able-bodied person working 16 hours a week while receiving UC and HB is okay and sustainable? Righto...

My gut feeling is that this number should not be more than 20 or 30%. If a relatively small number of wealthy people left the country then it would rapidly destabilise.

Also, everyone should pay SOME tax, even at 5%.

This is a well timed squirrel to distract people from the fact that the Tories had a Chancellor of the Exchequer who was being done over by HMRC while on the job. The Mail obey their paymasters.

Err... I'm confused as to why the state pension is not a benefit? It is an (largely) unfunded liability the state has taken on and is paid out of the tax revenue of the annual year and in effect is a giant, legal, pozi scheme. You have to pay in to be entitled to it, but what you pay in isn't kept in an account with your name on it for you to take out of in the future. Is it used to pay today's crop of pensioners/ other benefits. It doesn't 'die with you' it is alreay spent!

It is also a huge issue waiting to happen and why low birth rates / working age populations are such a worry to economists.

There are threads about that. People know about it. Doesn’t mean we can’t discuss this as well. Why is MN so funny about people discussing benefits?