AIBU to feel that teachers shouldn't really be striking?

[Pinky1011]

They have 3 months PAID holidays only work 9-4pm, no dangerous or really bad working conditions, great job security, good pensions, They had pay rises last year up to 8%!!! I work in the private sector and haven't had a pay rise in almost 6 years! I just feel compared to alot of other professions, teachers have it quite good? I mean their starting salary is the same as a junior doctor. I get it inflation has wrecked everyone, but surely the issue should be getting inflation down? Not just demanding for more money, which by the way only fuels inflation further. AIBU to feel that teachers just don't know how good they have it compared to the rest of us?

@Quveas sorry but this made me LOL🤣

Because I'll be honest alot of us here irl are perplexed as on the surface teaching looks like the perfect job. Especially if you have a passion in that subject

That's fantastic. There's a huge shortage of teachers and it's getting worse. So perhaps in real life you should become a teacher if it's so perfect.

Do you know much about economics?

This inflation is not being driven by salary rises or demand. Quite the opposite.

And in any case salary rises increasing inflation is purely theoretical: it has never been demonstrated in practice and many economisfs (even Friedman!) agree that is a PR fallacy spun by anti-tax governments. In reality, inflation pushes wages up, not the other way around. So your argument falls down really.

@FlairBand THIS!!! This is the point I am trying to get across. The pay isn't the issue, because teachers DO get very highly compensated. Not to mention not having to get childcare throughout the half terms. It's the working conditions that are the issue which I'm starting to understand however they have NOT been clear on stating this as they're reasons for striking. And I still think is much better than other sectors. I mean compared to working in healthcare teaching seems like a dream.

I do think there’s also a connection between teachers / teaching unions criticising their pay and conditions, and low employment and retention rate.

Even if I were looking to change careers I would be put off from teaching by all the headlines and complaints, when actually more than zero schools function well and have great, positive staff, strong leadership and good morale, beating in mind nowhere is perfect.

I’m not blaming teachers for lack of teachers and I know I will get flamed for saying it, but you’re hardly going to attract hoards of new people to a sector in which people are constantly telling how terrible their life is are you?

(Especially when no one ever talks about the good bits)

@NocturnalClocks um I have a finance background and I didn't say inflation was CAUSED by higher salaries, only that it doesn't solve the problem and can actually make inflation worse. This current state of inflation has been fueled by artificially low interest rates and excessive quantitative easing. I said salary increases for everyone only exasperates the problem and doesn't solve anything to do with the inflation. As goods will just rise again in line with the increased money supply in circulation.

If the working conditions are shit you need to pay people more money to put up with them that’s basically the way it works anywhere.

Absolutely no one goes to work for the love of it, we all work to live. Funding cuts have made the profession so shit that so many teachers are leaving. Unless you want unqualified teachers or to homeschool then they need to be paid more.

It’s not a race to the bottom, if you haven’t had a pay rise in 6 years look for a better job.

@Pinky1011 because it will help teachers pay their bills and in my case would have been able to cover my childcare costs, which is part of the reason why I am no longer teaching as I just cannot afford the childcare. A lot of teaching work is unpaid labour and the fact that we've had a pay cut in real terms means that a lot of our labour is unpaid. The biggest issue for a lot of us is the workload.

Arriving at school at 7am to finish prepping and planning lessons, setting the classroom up etc is manageable and just part of the job. Fine. Then between the hours of 8:30-3:15 (usually) is taken up with the children, delivering lessons, dealing with behaviour, answering queries from parents maybe, having meetings about progress and attainment perhaps, having meetings about subject leadership, monitoring from senior leaders about maths, reading, writing, SEN and maybe an extra curricular lesson - this could be taking your books to them, discussing planning, discussing test results etc. One of the dinner ladies was off sick so I had to cover her at dinner. I haven't eaten since my cereal bar this morning whilst standing at the door to greet the children.

Then the children go home and you sit down to mark the work from today and depending on your school policy this could be very quick or you could be marking 30 English books, maths books, topic books, maybe a spelling test or times tables test, guided reading work, home work etc with a comment tailored to that child. Maybe two positive comments and one comment to work on. For me, I couldn't get this all done before I had to leave to pick my child up from nursery. No mention of the stupid forms I had to fill in about god knows what - maybe some paperwork about our pupil premium children to prove what extra provision they were getting, maybe my 6 SEN children needed their personal plans updating, maybe I needed to update SIMS and add on 5 behaviour incidents and then inform the parents about it. Oh wait I've got 5 emails from parents about various things that apparently can't wait. But I still need to send out my positive praise texts! And I haven't even started planning tomorrow's maths, English and history lessons!! But first let me get the early morning work ready for when they come in. Oh the headteacher has just dropped by to ask if they can have a book from a higher achieving child, a child at age expectations and a lower achieving child for each subject but FUCK my marking is not up to date and they'll have me for it! Hopefully they won't put me on a support plan which means I'll need to be observed weekly and have weekly targets to hit. I already lose sleep about the fact that one child says he's scared to go home, another didn't eat any tea last night and a third can't even afford a winter coat. So and so slept inside a wardrobe last night because he hasn't got a bed.

Oh my god I can't even be bothered to go on because it's so depressing. Imagine me sat at my dining table after my children have gone to bed, marking and making PowerPoints for my next lesson. My PPA time is one afternoon and it is physically impossible to plan and resource so many lessons in that time. Anyone who can do it has my admiration.

Also funny that for ten year public sector workers apparently couldn't have a significant payrise because "inflation is low! So how can you ask for this, it's undeasonable!". And now because "inflation is high! We can't give it to you or it'll get worse!"

So when can they have a payrise exactly?

Even if inflation falls back to more "normal" levels again that just means price increases slow down. Unless we're about to have a period of 10% deflation for a while, it won't restore the 25% of the real value of their salaries that they've lost over the last 10 years.

And you can bet that if there was significant deflation the Government would try to oush through cuts to their headline salaries. 🤣

It is a stitch up. No wonder everyone in the public sector has had enough.

Your post sounds a bit "misery olympics" to me OP unfortunately. Fight for better politicians and working conditions and pay for yourself rather than trying to tell others they should let theirs be cut until it's as bad as yours.

*full disclosure: I'm an economist, not a teacher.

@LadyJ2023 the pay doesn't stay the same so how can you say that 6 years ago when I qualified I knew what the pay would be in 2023?! 6 years ago the pay suited me fine but now, even moving up the pay scale it doesn't cover my bills?!

There is no reason to suppose it would make inflation worse. This inflation is not demand driven. What kind of finance did you work in? I don't know anybody in finance who buys this Government rhetoric because this is a supply side issue.

@NocturnalClocks

@NocturnalClocks pay rises does not address any of the issues as to why the teachers are striking. And if they are granted pay rises and inflation isn't put under control then the issue isn't solved. This is my point. Inflation needs to be solved, you can't solve inflation by just throwing more money onto the problem.

@MynameisJune I understand what you're saying but if the working conditions are so shit everyone's miserable then realistically no reasonable amount of pay rise in the end is going to compensate that. What needs to be tackled are the working conditions of teachers not just paying them a few hundred extra pounds a month.

Here is a genuine question.

Would teachers (and other public sector workers) accept a change to their pensions in return for higher pay or better conditions?

The govt is absolutely hamstrung by the cost of public sector pensions, the likes of which have now completely disappeared in the private sector where the typical worker gets just 3% employer pension contributions into a DC scheme, as opposed to the lifelong inflating income that teachers for example will get. Private sector workers btw had virtually no recourse when DB pensions were taken away, their salaries didn’t rise proportionately and most did not have access to a union to help them understand the changes let alone do anything about them.

At the moment, govt pays about 24% salary into a teachers pension each year and teacher pays around 7-10% depending on their pay scale.

Historically, public sector pay has always been a bit below private because the pensions were so generous (and they’re still generous even though they have changed a bit). But it strikes me as though this is being taken for granted and people want greater parity with the private sector.

I can see how there is an argument for teachers to have more pay up front and lower employee contributions, even though in the long term the current system is far more valuable. However, reforming pensions is a way to add greater flexibility around pay that would ultimately lower the total cost of employment to the govt … meaning that costs could be redirected to improving conditions whilst also increasing salaries.

Pensions are the single most overlooked benefit and barrier in all these debates and I’m interested to know what people think about including them in a solution (particularly if people want greater parity with private sector).

You're conflating issues now. Your OP said teachers shouldn't have payrises because that would increase inflation (and I pointed out there's no evidence for that) and because you haven't had one (suggest you focus on that and change jobs).

Your last post then changes the focus and says effectively that schools should be improved. I agree. For that to happen they need far more funding. Have you written to your MP about that?

That argument would only hold for recruitment of new people though. It wouldn’t explain the retention crisis. Retention is even more of a problem than recruitment. Why are 1/3 of teachers leaving the profession for alternative jobs after only a few years of teaching? Clearly something is amiss if so many people want out. They are actually doing the job and experiencing the day to day realities of it.

The holidays, pension and pay is clearly not a worthwhile trade off for the working hours, working conditions, stress, disrespect, behavioural and pastoral issues or so many teachers wouldn’t be leaving the profession. Either the latter has to get better or the former has to increase to offset the emotional cost of putting up with the latter. Since teachers are only legally allowed to strike about pay, this will most likely be the reason.

At the moment, govt pays about 24% salary into a teachers pension each year and teacher pays around 7-10% depending on their pay scale.

That's not entirely true. The teachers' pension scheme is unfunded. No amount is being paid into a pension scheme for them, nothing. All they have effectively is a promise from the Government that they'll be paid something, which we all know isn't worth the paper it's written on because it can and will be changed and downgraded again.

Another one here backing the teachers.
OP, inflation is not being caused by the pay rises - it’s being caused by price increases caused by for example privatised energy companies profiteering in a way that they are simply not allowed to do in France. I suggest you get better informed and if you are dissatisfied with your pay, then get unionised 👍. Keeping teachers’ (or nurses’ or train drivers’ or postal workers’) pay down won’t help you it will just mean we all have poorer services and a low wage, high prices economy.

Same for NHS staff, fire service staff etc. There is no money to pay it, so none of them will be paid what they are expecting to be paid, unfortunately.

My brother qualified as an English teacher and was very keen to teach. Within a year he talked of leaving due to the long hours, poor working conditions, the school was often freezing and the building was crumbling, abuse from kids and their parents and having to teach a syllabus he found completely useless. In one week he had his classroom trashed twice, a child hit him and he received several abusive emails from a parent. He left at the end of that term.

Education is so important for our kids and for our country. Teachers should be supported and very well paid.

Um I did not say teachers should not have pay rises because it will make inflation worse??? I said pay rises don't solve the inflation issue and there is a POSSIBLITY that it could exasperate it (if goods just go up in line with everyone getting more money, this is a possibility I didn't say it was the cause or it will definitely happen) and I said pay rises don't solve the working conditions issues. They solve none of the issues that are actually causing teachers to go on strike. More funding is needed YES, teachers should be striking for that. But not for more money in their pockets imo. Which like I said doesn't solve any of the issues I stated and is more like sticking a plaster on a broken bone.

More funding is needed YES, teachers should be striking for that

Teachers. Can't. Strike. About. Funding. It. Would. Be. Illegal.

What don't you get about that?

Yes it’s mostly true for hiring new teachers yes (and not helped by people who say “well if you think teaching is so easy why don’t you try it….!”), but it also creates a culture of negativity and dissatisfaction which can influence working environments and ultimately decisions.

I know I’ve mentioned pensions a few times but I honestly think that they should be part of the solution.

There is no job anywhere where you can have both the benefits of a private sector salary and a public sector pension. And by the way, private sector salaries have also taken a huge real terms hit, they’re really not that great. If the public sector wants parity with private sector then we need to look at pensions as part of the solution. If they want pensions to stay the same then there needs to be an acceptance that pay is not entirely comparable. If conditions are the problem then we need to say so.

Interesting you say that teachers are only legally allowed to strike about pay, I didn’t know that and wonder if that’s why the real conversation about conditions is being drowned out by people who compete over how many hours overtime they have to work (teachers and non teachers).