To find media discussion about trans issues far overstated compared to the actual seriousness of the issue?

[BarmyBrunhilde]

Full disclosure, I happily accept most trans people I've met as their transitioned gender which I know puts me at odds with most people on MN. But as a feminist and a lefty, even if one views trans women as men which I don't, in terms of political priorities it ranks so list on my list of concerns. I assume that applies to most people too (trans people included!).

What someone has listed on their birth certificate has no impact on my life, and surely minimal impact on most women's lives? Imo we should be focusing on cost of living crisis, housing, properly funding women's services including rape crisis services, funding childcare, sorting out the health service and bloody schools! Gender recognition comes way below those for me (even though I'm broadly supportive with some checks in place).

I know gender criticals won't agree with me, and maybe some trans people who feel very strongly, but I do feel there's a silent majority of us who just aren't that fussed?

That is because it is MN. In real life, most people would agree as suggested by this article*

That's just not true. Poll after poll show in real life the public are against the GRR proposals.

archive.vn/2xAxY

forwomen.scot/04/10/2022/public-opinion-polls/

Do you often dehumanise people you disagree with OP?

Having watched posters in the past who dehumanise women who disagree with them by using dehumanising language like ‘the gender criticals’, ‘GCs’, ‘the gender crits’, then go on to dismiss violence against women of that poster considers the women one of the ‘gender criticals’, I wonder whether you realise the effect.

Once you dehumanise a person by using language in this way, they can then be dismissed as not being worth caring about.

If any person used ‘the transes’ or other terms that detach trans people from their humanness, MNHQ would very rightly delete that post.

YY. Huge tell.

I do hate, though, how the actions of a few perves are used to tar all trans-women on here, as though biological women can't be perves too.

Roughly (numbers rounded down to nearest 100 for the males, nearest 100k for the women):

1 in 500 "trans women" (bio male) is a convicted sex offender in prison

1 in 2500 men (bio male) are

1 in 200k women (bio female) are

Food for thought.

I wonder how people would feel if another faith based ideology attempted to get the law changed to suit them, without allowing analysis on how it affects other parts of the population?

How about if johovas witnesses demand the legal banning of blood transfusions for everybody, as it's not compatible with their faith?

The 'echo chamber' you talk of seems to consist of women giving reams of information and links to answer the OP's question and being met with...well, nothing.

Exactly. I would welcome some actual debate - some well thought out points and arguments that don’t just involve telling we’re wrong and mean and ‘it’s not happening’ (when we can clearly see that it is).

I wonder why the people lobbying to change such fundamental aspects of society seem to have no justification apart from we must do it to be kind?

Why will no trans lobbyists like Stonewall appear in tv to fully explain why the changes they have instigated are not a problem? Why did the Scottish government refuse to answer even the most basic quests out their law, like ‘how do you live in the acquired gender?’ and provide a proper definition of gender and transgender?

Please come and answer our questions and explain your position more clearly trans lobbyists - I know you’re there. If we have fundamentally misunderstood surely you can explain that so we understand?

Yup, I'm just not very fussed. I've met one (openly) trans person ever and she was nice. I've also met a couple of transvestites (men who regularly wore women's clothing in public but still considered themselves male), also both nice. That's about it.

Thanks for your pointless anecdote, it's completely made me change my mind about males in female spaces.

Legally changing the basis of womanhood from a fact of the body to a state of mind affects every single woman (old definition).

It legitimises treating "women" differently in society and employment because we "think like women".

It means we can't politically organise around the shared challenges and injustices of being female-bodied, because the female-bodied are no longer recognised as a legitimate political entity.

It means the law has accepted the outdated constructions of womanhood that trans women identify with, such as girlishness or sexual submission, are a true marker of womanhood.

It means the law no longer recognises that statistically male-bodied people present a clearly asymmetric risk to female bodied people, removing the justification for single sex protections both physical and social (and indeed single gender, an irony TRAs do not yet understand, but they will).

In short, by legally accepting trans women are not men treated as women because of how they want to live, but men who are women simply because of who they are, the law undermines any recognition of female rights and needs.

Like Brexit, you might not notice much change the day it happens, when social structures and norms are still running on the momentum of the old system and change takes time but, but you will sure as hell notice it more over time as that momentum fades as the changes it enables take root.

Yes, I think that affects me.

How about if johovas witnesses demand the legal banning of blood transfusions for everybody, as it's not compatible with their faith?

Good point. Or a Christian group changed the law to ban all sex outside of marriage?

I don't think feminism is compatible with not understanding that women face unique issues as a sex class that men don't and working to reduce the barriers women face on account of our sexed bodies. Of course many people of both sexes "identify" as feminists. But it's often just a virtue signalling label.

Exactly. Brilliant post.

You really can't think of any possible impact that a natal male, who is permitted to amend his birth certificate, might have on women (adult human females, for clarity)?

Your absolute stupidity is astounding!

You’ve assumed it was offered as an option. Do know if it was?

The sheer arrogance of saying ‘well it doesn’t affect me so it’s fine’ 🙄
Hope it never comes back to bite you - your Mum / Grandma could need intimate care, they may want Female only carers.
A Daughter / Grandaughter/ Niece could have a severe mental health breakdown, due to Sexual assualt and be put on a secure Psych ward, only to be told that the Male bodied individual in the next bed is actually a Woman.
A Female friend/relative is imprisoned and made to shower next to a Rapist who now says he’s a Woman. Female prisoners in some US States are getting pregnant by Male Trans prisoners and will have that baby forcibly removed from them.
So yeah, no big deal then.
Shame on you.

Define man and woman please. For the sake of credibility, please don't rely on sexist stereotypes or internal senses of identity which most women don't have.

Male (and female) GRC holders have more power than trans people without a GRC. If they are "outed" (read, their sex is acknowledged) by someone in authority or public services that person can actually go to prison. Even when it's stunningly obvious to everyone what sex a person is. The gaslighting is immense.

You aren’t bothered about it because it isn’t a problem for you personally. I use private schools and private healthcare but I’m still very upset about the collapse of NHs and education. Maybe work on your empathy?

If you haven’t been raped and then told you can only have access to rape centres if you’re willing to describe your experience in front of men, yay for you. If your daughter hasn’t been assaulted by a trans-identifying boy in the school girls’ toilet, yay for you. If you don’t care that teenage lesbians are being encouraged to sterilise themselves and amputate their breasts, yay for you. Doesn’t mean that these aren’t massive social problems that society should be ashamed of.

You’re demanding that we convince you and change your mind. Why should we? Go read Helen Joyce’s book, the child protection issues and misogynistic history of it all are set out very clearly there.

Because the generally obvious knowledge of what sex someone is is turned into "sensitive personal information" by the GRA.

And as more details of the real implications for women and children are brought to light increasing numbers of people are showing their objections. The tactics of trans rights activists is to label this as an issue affecting a tiny marginalised vulnerable group. But as the realisation emerges of the detrimental affects to women and children more and more of us are taking notice.

I'm so thankful for all the brave, intelligent and determined women (and some men too!) Who have fought against these changes to get us to this point. Thanks to each of them and their growing supporters these laws have not been deviously passed through. How fortunate we are that in our country we are not at risk of prosecution for simply stating biological facts. Unlike in Ireland and Norway for example.

Yes, I remember when the refrain was that "in Ireland there are no issues", then "in Ireland a man can easily get a GRC but in reality spaces are segregated by sex not gender" which then became "in Ireland there are three violent male sex offenders in a prison of 28 women".

If you would genuinely welcome debate why are you on the echo chamber that is Mumsnet? I am sure there are plenty of sites where you can debate with people who disagree with you on trans issues.

I genuinely have seen posters refer to themselves as gender critical.

Fwiw, I have also seen numerous references to trans people that do more than strip them of their identity. MN do not remove on either side.

Mumsnet is a large site with millions of unique users. We can have it here, and in other places. Do bring your best arguments as to why I should consider males women.

I genuinely have seen posters refer to themselves as gender critical.

You're either being disingenuous or you didn't understand the post.

Do birth certificates also record religion? Poverty? Sexuality? Whether the individual was in the forces in their younger years? Because you could extrapolate the same problems very everything else that isn’t being recorded as not recording trans status.

All of the other factors that make up and individual life are important too but trans is no more important to examine and record than any other life circumstance. And it is certainly not to anyone’s benefit to just outright lie and claim they were of the opposite biological sex.