To ask if my landlord is being unreasonable?

[waveyc]

We live in a private rented property. Last night I was upstairs in the bedroom when I heard the loudest crash and bang. Obviously went to investigate absolutely petrified thinking somebody had bricked our window, to find our glass shower screen had exploded. Glass covering every single surface in the bathroom and it had travelled outside all over the landing carpet. Thankfully our 3 year old DS was nowhere near at the time.

Me and DH spent the best part of an hour cleaning up as best as we could. I was shaken up just because I was so shocked and the noise was so, so loud.

Anyway, I reported it to my letting agent who has told us that the landlord will not be paying for the cost of a replacement and has blamed us for the damage.

For context, just over 12 months ago our oven door also shattered which he did replace. Another freak incident which we just couldn't explain. We have not damaged the shower screen in any way and now we are being told it is our fault and he is suspicious because of the oven door incident. He's said we either pay now or he deducts the money from our deposit at the end of the tenancy agreement

I have no idea if we are being completely unreasonable in saying we do not want to pay for the replacement as it wasn't our fault.

AIBU?

I’m a landlord op and they are beyond unreasonable and are liable for any future injury caused to you from not removing the remaining glass attached to the door frame, which is a health hazard.

I would remove it if you can for you family’s protection and take photographic evidence of doing this. But before doing so, I would also respond to the letting agent with a link to glass breaking spontaneously, reiterate this is an unfortunate coincidence and give them a day to rectify the problem with the evidence the glass poses a risk to life. I would also make clear that if they refuse to pay for a handyman, you are not a trained professional and will do your best to not damage the property whilst removing the broken screen. There are also fragments of glass, which could damage the bath and I would also point out you’ve done your best to remove these without causing further damage to the bath, flooring and toilet (plus anywhere else the glass fell).

I would also contact the CAB for advice and buy a curtain and pole. By rights you could actually let the water fall on the floor and cause further damage, including to the wiring if it permeates the floor. All you’d need to do is inform the ll there is no longer a way of preventing water escaping in the shower. However that is the nuclear option.

And how does showering there or not make a difference when remnants aren’t liable for ‘wear and tear’
if the glass has gradually weakened over time then it’s not the OP’s responsibility to replace it

I agree, put up a (telescoping) shower curtain rail in the meantime. Landlords often put the cheapest options into their properties, do shoddy maintenance etc so it's possible that it failed because of a combination of those two things.

If he attempts to take your deposit, challenge it through the deposit scheme.

Landlords say a lot of things but it doesn't mean they have the right to do them.

It happens but I have probably only been aware of it for a couple of years but have been a landlord for more than 10 years. I would gather as much evidence of this happening as possible and send to the agents stated it happened spontaneously and is a well documented risk and again asking for the landlord to replace. If it comes to a dispute situation with a deposit scheme I suspect as long as you provide evidence to support it being a known issue then the claim would go in your favour.

I have had glass burst on me like that, too. Twice. Thankfully small items.

One was a pyrex measuring jug that was sitting on the shelf at the time.

The other was the lid of a new pan (in that case it was clear tht it was the heat stress)

The latter ruined the dinner unfortunately but the manufacturer replaced it as a manufacturing defect.
As someone said here, the key is that the glass bursts into a lot of tiny pieces, no long cracks originating from somewhere. That doesn't happen any other way.

There are whole departments at universities and companies dealing with forensics (how did their stuff break). Maybe it's possible to get some official explanation with pictures beyond wikipedia of what this looks like and send this to your letting agent/landlord.

And go on the offensive: you're scared for your toddler, not trying to make them pay for something you broke.

Your landlord and the agent are completely misunderstanding how these things work. (Though, reading between the lines, the agent does possibly know that the landlord is in the wrong).

It doesn’t matter in the slightest how the damage was caused or whose fault it was, the landlord needs to provide a shower screen. He can try to recover the cost from you at the end of the tenancy, but he can’t force you to pay for your own replacement now.

To give you a comparative example, my tenant caused a fire in my property with a candle that she admitted leaving unattended near flammable items. I paid for all the very extensive damage to be put right, including quite a lot that wasn’t covered by my insurance.

(In theory, I would have argued to withhold the deposit at the end of the tenancy to cover it. However she left without paying the final month’s rent and never asked for her deposit back. I could sue her for the unpaid rent as you’re not allowed to offset the deposit like that, but I decided in the end it wasn’t worth the hassle)

I know that you are worried the landlord will give you notice if you push this. He couldn’t give you short notice though, and it may well be worth looking at moving on given that he is failing in his responsibilities to you. Only you will know the local market and whether it is weighted in favour of landlords or tenants- believe me, changing tenants is a right hassle and I generally tend to avoid creating situations where mine will want to move on.

Happened to me. I was in labour too and had a lot of cuts!! Not good. My landlord implied I’d done it, but did pay up. Not helpful, but just to say it’s definitely a thing.

While all the information about how this can indeed happen spontaneously, I’d advise OP against arguing that right now because it is completely irrelevant. That information is only relevant when it comes to the return of the deposit. Bringing it into the mix now will undermine OP’s basic position, which is that it is the landlord’s responsibility to put right any damage to fixtures and fittings, howsoever caused.

The landlord would be potentially creating more problems long-term by not fixing it, as the water from the shower will ruin the bathroom.

Thank you so much everyone for the advice. I am wondering if I should reply to the letting agent, just so I have proof at a later date, but not sure if I should include the link of spontaneous shattering? I think I should reply with something, but I don't know what.

I won't be putting up a new glass shower screen because I don't think I should be the one replacing like for like when I've done nothing wrong whatsoever. I think the landlord should at least offer to put up a curtain pole but I don't even think he will do this so it's looking like I'll have to. I'm worried causing aggro now will not go in our favour but at the end of the agreement I will definitely dispute it and go as far as possible to make sure we don't get charged for the replacement

I definitely think you should go back to them, saying you absolutely haven't done anything, you refute any suggestion that you have and that the landlord has a responsibility to maintain the house in a suitable state and therefore that you expect X suitable thing.

I.e. to send someone to come and make good the shower screen and replace with a curtain or to replace the screen etc.

I don't know how you can make him do what you want but it's worth noting that revenge evictions (evicting you because you insisted the landlord did their job) are illegal:

england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/repairs/revenge_eviction_if_you_ask_for_repairs

It looks like you would need to report your landlord to the council though.

Thank you so much everyone for the advice. I am wondering if I should reply to the letting agent, just so I have proof at a later date, but not sure if I should include the link of spontaneous shattering? I think I should reply with something, but I don't know what.

Yes, you must reply in order to have proof later.

I am a LL and have been a tenant. As a tenant I’d reply to the agent:

Dear agent

Thank you for letting me know that the LL will not send anyone to deal with this. I note that he mentions the oven door - we feel very unlucky to have been misfortunate to experience 2 episodes of spontaneous shattering (link) whilst in this property. We’re lucky that no one was hurt, however. I confirm that we were not using the shower screen or near it when it exploded (pics as per my previous email) nor were we responsible for the oven door.

There is still the hinge attached to the wall and sharp shards of glass. If the LL will not send anyone to remove this safely and provide a shower screen enclosure (replacement glass or rod + shower curtain) we will attempt to remove it ourselves but cannot guarantee there will be no further damage to the wall/tiles. We will purchase a shower curtain and rod.

Please could you ask the LL to confirm that he is OK with us attempting to remove the remaining hinge?

Yours

etc

Should I mention that we will put up a curtain pole?

But the difficulty you are going to have us proof. That's the real problem here. He may well have used cheaper products for rental and they may well have spontaneously shattered, but you can't prove that. It is your word against his and even at the end of the tenancy I can't see any way you are going to stop him taking it from your deposit because you aren't going to be able to prove you did not do it. It will be your word against his. Sadly I think this is just going to be an unfortunate case where he will take the money from your deposit and you won't be able to prove it broke without explanation.

Sadly I think this is just going to be an unfortunate case where he will take the money from your deposit and you won't be able to prove it broke without explanation.

That’s not likely. The deposit protection scheme is weighted in favour of the tenant here - the LL would have to prove the tenants broke it and that it did not spontaneously shatter. And as there’s loads of evidence that spontaneous shattering is a known thing, they’re unlikely to side with the LL.

This is my response:

"Thanks for your email.

However, I just want to make it absolutely clear that we are not at fault here and refute any suggestion that we are. The landlord has a responsibility to maintain the property and keep it it in a suitable and safe state, therefore we would expect, at the minimum, that a professional come and remove the remaining hinge and glass in order to prevent a potential injury to us or damage to the wall, tiles or bath.

If he will not do this, we will attempt it ourselves, but as mentioned above we cannot guarantee any further damage as after all we are not professionals. Instead, we will install a shower curtain and pole which I think you will agree is a much safer alternative, as we cannot risk it happening again around our 3 year old.

I note that he mentions the oven door - I agree that it’s very unfortunate that we have experienced 2 instances of glass shattering whilst in this property. However, we were not responsible for that either and again, ultimately we were very lucky that nobody was hurt then either."

Thoughts?

Yes, I would. It acts as proof that you are willing to act responsibly and you are willing to provide a replacement but not like for like. You can take a shower curtain and telescopic pole with you when you leave if you want.

That’s a great email, OP.

@NoSquirrels response is fine, and does say that you are putting up a rod and curtain. I do think that getting into irrelevant further debate about the cause at this stage distracts from the primary aim of getting the landlord to replace, but it’s up to you.

@waveyc
i am a landlord.

if I was your LL I would be replacing that screen without further ado unless my tenants & I agreed a pole & curtain was the way to go.
He is being ridiculous.

He IS responsible for the upkeep of his property so if he wants water to spill over from the shower compromising the flooring, crack on Mr Landlord.

Meanwhile put up a pole & curtain which you might have to just suck up the cost of when you come to leave.

Keep a copy of everything, links etc . for evidence.

Our (cheap) oven door, also exploded one cold winter morning. Same thing happened to a friend. I think it’s quite common. In cheaper models (the irony not lost on me).

I would imagine it may be the cold that’s done it to your screen.
how you fight it though, I don’t know. You can’t prove it, but neither can he.
We just replaced our oven as we didn’t want the grief of being accused of doing something. We take that view a lot, it’s just easier to do ourselves.

Cross post. Your version is great as it puts the fault issue in second place. Perfect.

Oh and good luck. Renting is shit

Think I'm gonna send that email. There's nothing else I can add is there?

Even if you put a brick through it, this kind of glass will still fragment into small pieces so there’s no way of telling if it was accidental damage or spontaneous explosion.