To think political discussion does belong on Mumsnet

[HermioneWeasley]

At the protest for the Scottish gender reform bill last night. We silly women are only permitted to talk about prams and weaning don’t you know?

"I’ve seen people on here advocating for single sex spaces for lesbians and including them in this “vulnerable women” status. I’m gay. Most of my friends are gay. We don’t need you to advocate for us thanks."

And have you actually checked if the poster is a lesbian? or have you just used your own prejudice about MNers again to assume that they are not?

Do you understand how many lesbian and bisexual women are leading these very discussions?

Or have you ignored them all because they are inconvenient to your own agenda.

If you spent time on FWR board, you would realise that this is something that is widely discussed and widely agreed on.

However, it constantly gets rejected by extreme trans rights activists and their lobby groups.

Yes. It would be fucking ideal!

Because if only 5% of lesbians want single sex spaces (that’s an example, it may well be more) it’s not lesbians that want single sex spaces, it’s women who happen to also be lesbians.

But you're eroding the rights of those 5%. Rights they have currently.

So why do you get to do that, when you can have mixed spaces if you want?

Well of course a range of spaces would be ideal. But that's not good enough for certain TRAs

Do we need to just keep posting the names of the lesbian and bisexual women who are out there campaigning for the strengthening of the rights of the female half of the population just to prove something to someone?

some of the leading names in feminism, who are lesbian, have been campaigning for this for a very long time.

No. Aibu isn't the right topic for a political post about trans. It should be in politics or feminism. Otherwise what's the point of having the topics. We may as well just have one chat topic !

I don’t think I’m making myself clear - I think single sex spaces should obviously exist for those who want them. But to say it’s lesbians who want/need them, if it’s not true that the majority of lesbians do, isn’t necessarily true. It’s just people who also happen to be lesbians. The fact that they’re also lesbians is largely irrelevant, surely? I understand the argument with lesbians and dating apps - if they only want to date females, they should be able to state this without being accused of transphobia. But changing rooms for example, surely it’s irrelevant that they’re a lesbian, what matters if that they’re female.

AIBU is a common thread where people discuss whether they are being unreasonable or not - on any topic. Any topic the OP likes. It also has a poll facility. As this OP has chosen to use.

Or don't you like the poll results?

You could just scroll past a topic that you don't wish to engage with. You never seem to be able to though.

Because if only 5% of lesbians want single sex spaces (that’s an example, it may well be more) it’s not lesbians that want single sex spaces, it’s women who happen to also be lesbians.

Yes, your next post made that clear.

But the issue is that for a lot of TRAs that can't be accommodated because TWAW, end of story.

No. Aibu isn't the right topic for a political post about trans. It should be in politics or feminism. Otherwise what's the point of having the topics. We may as well just have one chat topic !

Go through the various threads on AIBU and they could all be slotted into various other threads. This AIBU is a valid discussion point. It could be on AIBU, politics or feminism. Discussions can cover many topics. It's not either or. You don't like it as it doesn't align with your beliefs clearly.

Hi - genuine question, do you think it makes a difference that you’re a lesbian in regards to wanting single sex changing rooms or hospital wards? Sorry, I’m trying to think of other examples. I understand dating apps - what do you mean by groups? Just social groups? Could you explain why you’d prefer to have this as single sex if you don’t mind? Is this because trans women don’t share the same experiences as biological women who are lesbians? I hope you don’t mind these questions - I am genuinely interested.

"It’s just people who also happen to be lesbians. The fact that they’re also lesbians is largely irrelevant, surely?"

Oh dear. What is this?

You wish to dismiss other lesbian's opinions because you think that the fact they are lesbians are irrelevant???

You specifically ask about how many lesbians want changing rooms to be female only, then you try to twist this as being irrelevant because they are campaigning for this because they are doing this on the basis that they are female and not lesbian?

Do you even understand the pretzeling and twisting you are doing here?

Either way, you are dismissing other lesbian voices because you disagree with them.

Isn't it great that the attack on women's rights has gone from #nodebate to being discussed in parliament and in every media outlet. Well done women. Mumsnet not only belongs in politics, I would say it's essential👏

If you see my previous post, I’ve asked a poster to explain if it’s the fact they’re a lesbian that makes them want a single sex changing room. I don’t think being straight would make you more likely to want men in a changing room would it? It’s not like you’re there looking for a date. I’m not dismissing their opinions, I’m questioning whether they have that opinion because they are a lesbian or because they’re female. I don’t know any lesbians who are bothered about single sex spaces, so I am trying to learn.

The problem is that if you introduce self I.D you can't guarantee same sex spaces for anyone. The floodgates are opened.

If you see my previous post, I’ve asked a poster to explain if it’s the fact they’re a lesbian that makes them want a single sex changing room.

I've read that post twice and you are ignoring the comma and the word 'and'. IDK why. Either you misunderstood, or else you are making some kind of weird point.

Go through the various threads on AIBU and they could all be slotted into various other threads.

Exactly. For example the CF parking ones with obligatory diagram! Or the current SEN one or choosing a dog breed one.

It's specifically this topic that brings out the monitors, scolding women and telling them to move over elsewhere and/or shut up. Move over where and shut up for whom? People like this - also at the same protest saying mothers should be silent?

southwarknews.co.uk/news/politics/camberwell-woman-sets-her-sights-on-becoming-uks-first-trans-gender-mp

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11655647/Labour-MPs-attend-protest-trans-activist-jailed-murder-bid.html

Can I suggest then, if you are actually genuinely trying to learn, that you spend time on that board you seem to avoid and actually positively engage with the discussions. That you put aside your prejudices that have become rather clear on this thread and actually engage with it.

Can I suggest that you start with Sarah's thread here.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4539958-big-update-on-rape-crisis-legal-challenge?page=1

Sarah is also a lesbian and is taking the Brighton Rape Crisis centre to court about their treatment of her asking for that additional female only space. The one you and I and Nilshammer and many others agree would be ideal to have.

It's why they want mumsnet gone.

Can you clearly explain the relevance of why you want to detach a lesbian's sex from their sexual orientation in this discussion?

Why does it even matter?

Surely it is a feminist issue. And feminism is about collectively working towards making the world a better place for all female people. Of any age, of any gender. But just females. Males have their own groups and groups that deal with specific needs. Feminism is about all females.

sorry nils I misidentified you! I lost the 'mouse'

It’s not that I’m prejudiced against the board, it’s just that when I have posted on threads regarding trans rights before, I’m often piled on and attacked. It’s not like people want to help me learn, and I’m not expecting that anyone should have to, it’s that I’m a TRA, I’m stupid, I don’t care about women etc. So I avoid threads on there because everyone tends to be GC and it’s a pile on, whereas at least when it crops up on AIBU, it’s not all GC posters. But I will read the thread you’ve linked, thanks.

That’s my point though, it doesn’t matter. It is a feminism issue, so it’s irrelevant that someone’s a lesbian. It’s just as relevant in their hair colour, imo. I would need to speak to lesbians who want single sex’s because of their sexuality, rather than because of their sex, which I haven’t done because I don’t know any.

Piled on and attacked?

Or asked to explain why rapists should be in women's prisons and why girls should chop their breasts off?

Sorry I obviously have misunderstood because I don’t understand this comment either.