To think political discussion does belong on Mumsnet

[HermioneWeasley]

At the protest for the Scottish gender reform bill last night. We silly women are only permitted to talk about prams and weaning don’t you know?

I tend to agree with you. I don't like those articles and shows myself.

However, I am trying to point out your example isn't strong at all, as you would like it to be.

"I tend to steer clear of the feminism board because a lot of it is thread after thread about trans people."

Do you understand that there are two feminism boards? And the one that you refer to was hived off specifically for those discussions about strengthening and prioritising the rights for all females where there is a conflict with males who seek to access those rights?

That is why there is thread after thread relating to that topic.

Because a group of posters complained to Justine about the thread topics that they simply could not scroll past being on a general feminism board. Those posters seemed to have disappeared off the board that they wanted set up for them and then persisted in posting shaming 'you are all transphobic' posts on the board that they deemed unacceptable.

So, claims of transphobia towards feminists and general MN posters are most definitely not new. It is regularly done to attempt to shut down discussions, derail them or to merely shame women who disagree with them.

I advise any poster who sees a transphobic post to report it.

If it does not get deleted, it is probably because it is your own (general 'your') interpretation of what is considered transphobic that is the issue not the post itself.

To say that 'transphobia is a problem' on MN when transphobic posts are deleted is merely perpetuating your own prejudiced view on what is transphobic vs what reasonable people consider transphobia. Because even a hint of what could be considered transphobic will be deleted by the moderation team.

Otherwise it ends up on twitter as an example to just keep on perpetuating that claim that MN is transphobic.

If it does not get deleted, it is probably because it is your own (general 'your') interpretation of what is considered transphobic that is the issue not the post itself.

Indeed @Helleofabore. It would be terribly nice to get an agreed definition of transphobia (along with a whole host of other definitions and answers to questions) but definitions, answers to questions and evidence don't seem to be a particularly strong suit in Gender Ideology.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism

this is the link to the 'other' board electricdreaming. It is very quiet and not many people use it. The Sex and Gender board, the one specifically for these discussions, often gets threads posted that are not 'sex and gender' related because posters want traffic to their threads.

As predicted would happen. All because people could not just scroll past a thread title they were not interested in apparently. Just like the posters who come onto these thread on AIBU to either just shame women who disagree with them, or they report the thread to have it removed to the other board because they cannot bear to just scroll on past a thread they don't want to interact with. Which is pretty infantile in my book.

So, please don't add to the constant and frequent shaming of posters who use the Sex and Gender board for its specified purpose with statements like:

"I tend to steer clear of the feminism board because a lot of it is thread after thread about trans people."

And you can frame it as 'about trans people', however, it is 'pro-women and pro-girls' and discussions on the impacts (potential and actual) to our lives not 'about trans people'. Discussions that are not relevant to feminism and the needs of all female people get shut down pretty quickly or not engaged with.

And even if you argue that when there is transphobia, it’s reported and removed, surely the fact that it’s even there in the first place in such volumes is quite telling?

Don't be daft. If there is transphobia (which we can't find) it is reported (there are monitors, apparently) and deleted.
That his how transphobic the site is - transphobic posts are removed. Blimey.

Honestly. If you see transphobia everywhere, you maybe need to reframe what you think that is. But if you see it here, report it. The mods will err on the side of caution so chances are it will be removed.

As for keeping mumsnet out of politics (or indeed politics out of mumsnet), that's a hard pass.
As we have been saying for years (I'm a 2nd waver, and this came before my time) "the personal is the political". Everything is political

Another day on MN where someone mentions the vast anti-trans rhetoric/transphobia but no evidence to back it up.

Daily occurrence now.

Again - wanting single SEX provisions for women is not anti-trans.

Agree.

Agree

Why do you describe yourself as 'not aligned' I wonder?

Do you disagree with the rights of vulnerable women to single sex spaces and services?

This is so aggressive and goady and for what? Maybe she just agreed with the second part about political discussion. Maybe she isn’t gender critical. So what if she isn’t? I’ve seen people on here advocating for single sex spaces for lesbians and including them in this “vulnerable women” status. I’m gay. Most of my friends are gay. We don’t need you to advocate for us thanks. And as a gay woman, I’m not fucking vulnerable and I don’t need the mumsnetters out in force with their pitchforks to defend me from the nasty trans women.

@electricdreaming the only aggressive post is yours.

It would be wouldn’t it

Why is it anytime you can’t answer innocuous questions, you accuse the asker of being aggressive and goady? Do you think that tactic works for you?

Yeah I do acc x

This is so aggressive and goady and for what?

Because I think the perception that's referenced needs challenged.

if she means something else she can come and say that.

I think people can be forgiven for being a bit forth right when there's so much unevidenced perception presented as fact.

Well, at least you admit you’re not posting in good faith.

But nowhere in that post thst she agreed with did I mention any transphobia on here, suggest anyone was a bigot, or anything else that was my perception presented as fact. I said I don’t agree with most people on here re trans rights - I don’t. I’m not gender critical. I do think you’re well within your rights to discuss it on here though, and any other area of politics. I never said anywhere in my post I didn’t think single sex spaces should be protected, so she wasn’t even agreeing to that. It was goady and irrelevant to the post she quoted.

I have an ongoing list of things that are classed as "transphobic" if anyone wishes to add to it:

-biology
-reality
-women's rights
-child safegurding
-single sex spaces
-lesbians

But nowhere in that post thst she agreed with did I mention any transphobia on here

You said you weren't aligned with the position on trans rights and she agreed.

if she means something different she can explain that

If you think I've broken any guidelines, do report me. 🤷‍♀️

@electricdreaming I'm sure she can come and speak for herself, if she so wishes, which is what the poster was asking. Nothing aggressive or goady about it until you decided to nominate yourself as her angry mouthpiece.

-biology
-reality
-women's rights
-child safegurding
-single sex spaces
-lesbians

Language
History

This is a very well worn line of discussion.

In essence: it's lovely for you that as a woman and a lesbian you are fine with using mixed sex spaces, mixed sex lesbianism and are not personally affected by exclusion from refuges, medical care or risk of rape on hospital wards and in prison. I'm honestly very happy for you.

What would you like to happen for the women who aren't?

If you don't want / need single sex spaces, then cool.

But what gives you the right to trade them away on behalf of others who have stated they need them?

I’d like them to say that for themselves - as a gay person, it’s really irritating when straight people campaign for what they think we want. It’s condescending and patronising. I can’t find any data on it so please provide me with some if you have it, but in my experience lesbians are more like to be pro trans than not. Including trans women in female spaces.

Do you disagree with the rights of vulnerable women to single sex spaces and services?
This is so aggressive and goady and for what?

This is why we're all rolling our eyes so much that we can now only see the inside of our skull
It's not agressive at all.