To think political discussion does belong on Mumsnet

[HermioneWeasley]

At the protest for the Scottish gender reform bill last night. We silly women are only permitted to talk about prams and weaning don’t you know?

I tend to steer clear of the feminism board

Which is it? You steer clear or know it so well, you know it's full of alleged transphobia? Can't be both at once.

Hence the failed #nodebate nonsense.

It was one poster, new and has not posted since - I think we can infer it wasn't a genuine MN from that fact, and others rightly called them out and the post was deleted.

Honestly, this is a talk forum. You can't call it transphobic on the basis of a tiny tiny minority that post, often in bad faith. Thats like calling Twitter a sensible intelligent place to debate politics because Robert Peston or Beth Rigby tweet.

Honestly, I think a lot of the bashing of cosmetic surgery is rooted in internalised misogyny anyway, but that’s a whole other issue.

I'd argue that the desire for increasingly extreme cosmetic procedures is rooted in internalised misogyny.

I’ve obviously read threads on there, and therefore chose to steer clear. Is that really hard to process? There’s so much hostility on here for no reason.

I agree with that too. But I don’t think bashing people who choose to have it helps. There’s a reason why they feel like they need it, and mocking them for it just alienates them and makes them feel like they need more in my opinion.

Christ do we class Robert Peston as sensible and intelligent now too 😂

Yes it should be on mn and in many cases is squashed elsewhere.

Amusing in a way to see someone think it holds that much sway. I suppose it could do - good on those who post on the issue.

There’s so much hostility on here for no reason.

Women unhappy about being labelled bigots for discussing their sex based rights, yup really baffling.

Productive conversations don't usually start with name calling.

Have I labelled anyone a bigot? Have I name-called anyone? Not quite sure how many more times I need to say that people are perfectly within their rights to defend their sex based rights and I’ve never disagreed with that. I probably should’ve come to this with more examples of blatant transphobia, granted, and I’m not prepared to go looking for them, so if that means it doesn’t exist, so be it. I have seen transphobia on here, as have other posters, so I’m probably not imagining it. But no, I don’t have any posts to hand to demonstrate it.

I do however think the post I quoted was transphobic because it is dismissing somebody’s surgical complications because the surgery they had was related to their trans identity.

That still does not fit your own definition of transphobia. You have no way of knowing what that same individual would have said to anyone else experiencing complications.

As you accept that acknowledging or stating a persons biological sex or advocating for single sex spaces is not transphobic then that is great. I’m sure we are all largely in agreement.

I suggest you revisit whatever ‘transphobic’ comments you saw in the past and apply your own test for transphobia. If you can demonstrate a clear case of discrimination where someone has made a derogatory comment about a trans person specifically that you can show they wouldn’t have made to anyone else then I suggest you report it (without resorting to assumptions or putting words in peoples mouths) We don’t want transphobia on these boards. Until you can find actual transphobia, please stop making unfounded accusations.

I find what's happening quite baffling.

It's like these meta narratives take over.

Like, MN is full of nasty, bigoted, hate filled posters who want to erase Trans-people's existence. And that somehow becomes 'fact' in people's minds, despite them never actually seeing anything to support it with their own eyes.

Like people are swallowing conclusions first and then scrabbling to support them (as we're seeing on this thread). Rather than drawing conclusions from evidence.

Its the same with the JKR is transphobic comments. She just is y'know. No need for any evidence to support it. Critical thinking having just gone down the pan.

But I don’t think bashing people who choose to have it helps.

It's a bizarre phenomenon I've only seen on MN; a desire to discuss a controversial subject is very quickly labelled as 'bashing' even when there is no evidence of judgement. Discussions on MN can be robust, we should not need to tip toe around facts people find inconvenient or uncomfortable.

Have I labelled anyone a bigot?

Err your quite keen to establish MN is transphobic without actually providing evidence. Personally I don't appreciate evidence free assertions designed to malign women wanting to discuss their rights.

Your = you're

Any 'bashing' I've seen of people struggling with the outcomes of surgery have been from TRAs actually. Detransitioners and those struggling are often cast out by the TRA community for disrupting the narrative.

In the thread that was linked there is a lot of concern and worry from GC posters.

Err I’m on mumsnet. Quite clearly I don’t think everyone on it is some raging “terf” bigot. There is a problem with it, I’ve seen it, lots of other posters have. Should’ve had the evidence ready, I didn’t. My mistake.

Its the same with the JKR is transphobic comments. She just is y'know. No need for any evidence to support it. Critical thinking having just gone down the pan.

Yes, I noticed quite a lot of people who have no idea what JKR wrote just accepting the word of random strangers that she is transphobic.

A common theme when a revealing article or study was produced that didn’t accord with their narrative is “I’ve read it so you don’t have to”, as if they are protecting their followers from this terrible thing and then they make up their own version of what was actually written and produce endless articles which eventually drown out the original.

They did exactly this with JKRs thoughtful essay. She said nothing transphobic at all but the trans activists lied and misrepresented it so much that many have never seen the original text.

Clearly political discussion is allowed as long as it comes to the right conclusions, but where it doesn’t, it must be stopped. Fortunately it is particularly easy to see where political discussion is going the wrong way when it involves women talking about what is in women’s best interests without deferring to men.

Should’ve had the evidence ready, I didn’t. My mistake.

It's prevalent enough for you to describe it as a 'problem' so I would imagine you could just pop over to the feminist board and pick any random thread to find examples.

A common theme when a revealing article or study was produced that didn’t accord with their narrative is “I’ve read it so you don’t have to”, as if they are protecting their followers from this terrible thing

Very reminiscent of how the Catholic Church retained control over the bible so that the populace didn't read it themselves and get ideas!!!

There is a problem with it, I’ve seen it, lots of other posters have. Should’ve had the evidence ready, I didn’t. My mistake.

Have you thought? Have you seen transphobia that meets your definition? So you know that the other accusers have the same definition as many of them define acknowledging biological sex as transphobic so how do you know that the ‘transphobia’ they claim is actually transphobia?

I think the surgery complications thread is still up, why don’t you check it? If you do find any it would also be helpful to establish that the comment wasn’t made by a trans activist wishing to make accusations of transphobia against us for screenshots on Twitter. It has been known.

It's prevalent enough for you to describe it as a 'problem' so I would imagine you could just pop over to the feminist board and pick any random thread to find examples.

Or remember the general gists of posts you're talking about.

For example, I remember a thread, many months ago, that was started with clearly transphobic intent on FWR. It was roundly condemned by regular posters and it was deleted very quickly by the mods. However I remember clearly the subject and what it was trying to do.

So surely you have multiple examples you remember?

The shameful display by the MP for Brighton Kemptown in the s35 debate a couple of days ago is exactly why MN should be in politics. No MP should feel they can dismiss women’s voices and concerns in such an aggressive manner. This is why the women of MN will continue to speak up. Women’s rights and women’s voices matter.

Single-sex spaces and service provision is necessary and reasonable. Steps should be taken to provide appropriate support and services for transpeople but not at the expense of women.

I choose not to be relegated to a subset of womanhood nor to be defined by a set of regressive misogynistic gender stereotypes. Biology is a fact not an opinion.

Quite.

This accusation levelled at Mumsnet, or Mumsnet FWR, that it is full of bigoted transphobes continuously posting transphobic comments and that the posters don't want trans people to exist is arrant nonsense. Every single poster who makes this claim NEVER has any evidence to back it up - do you normally go round labelling people or places as transphobic or homophobic or racist without any evidence to back up your assertions @electricdreaming ?