To think political discussion does belong on Mumsnet

[HermioneWeasley]

At the protest for the Scottish gender reform bill last night. We silly women are only permitted to talk about prams and weaning don’t you know?

I think I saw the same post. I thought she was incredibly brave to post in such detail. I can't understand how anyone would find it inappropriate for her to not want that care conducted by a male.

When you say that trans women are men, then you say that trans women don't exist.

No, and I'll say this slowly so you understand - transwomen exist as transwomen, the number one qualifying criteria to be a transwoman is that the transwoman is a male ergo a man, a female ergo a woman cannot be a transwoman.

That is not denying existence, it's not transphobic, anti-trans or any other risible nonsense it is just cold hard reality.

I can't understand how anyone would find it inappropriate for her to not want that care conducted by a male.

I don't think many women do think it's inappropriate for a woman to want a female carer but quite a few don't seem to understand they are supporting an ideology which would like to criminalise women for making that request. They are quite literally so naive they do not believe the government would enact such laws but they are failing to see how these laws are working out in other countries because mainstream media does not report on the gross injustices which result from prioritising the nebulous concept of gender identity over sex.

There are others who say they would be OK with a male providing intimate care and therefore the rest of us should be too.

Sadly I have seen many posts over the years which say, effectively, that TWAW and therefore you should accept them providing intimate care like any other woman.

Agree re the other issues though.

Sorry can’t reply to all as am busy at the moment, have just scanned through. Yes I’ve read the book, I used it for my dissertation discussing trans rights and have a copy on my shelf, so am able to quote, just not now. That tweet that someone’s linked doesn’t make sense if it’s trying to “gotcha” me - I’m agreeing with what she says. She talks in the book about the importance of mumsnet in politics and how politicians have used mumsnet to reach out to women. To the poster who said I was suggesting it is transphobic to discuss protecting women’s rights, that’s the opposite of what I’m saying. I’m saying those discussions are valid, but that can take place without some of the stuff I see on here. I can’t remember off the top of my head many posts, but even if you take that “Oh well” post in relation to trans people experiencing complications with surgery, it’s so dismissive and uncalled for, and just plain nasty imo. Yes single sex spaces need to be protected, but is that justification for that flippancy towards another human being? And to the poster who asked about if I’m talking about transphobia that is deleted, yes I am in part. I agree that a lot of blatant transphobia is rightly called out and deleted, but the fact that it’s there in the first place suggests that mumsnet has a problem with transphobia no?

"I am on several other forums that have strict rules around the discussion and as a result there isn't the combative undertone that MN has."

"I've seen it time and time again, they (tetfs) just refuse to engage in a rational manner. It's all nitpicking and imaginary slights....."

cofeetablebook

That is a remarkable post there. Refuse to engage in a rational manner?

Are we even on the same forum? The number of posters that enter discussions about the conflicts with the rights of women and girls and the group of males seeking to access those rights and protections set up for women and girls who simply cannot do anything more than post misrepresentations and can never support their claims with evidence that either is relevant to their claim, or even actually supports their claim is very clear.

Or posters use hyperbole or emotional manipulation to try to persuade because there is clearly no evidence at all.

It started on this thread with the first time 'anti-trans' was posted. Do you think posters who use of 'anti-trans' are rational? non-combative? seeking to engage?

Or is me pointing that out 'nitpicking' an 'imaginary slight'?

Discriminating against someone because they are trans? Not because they are a certain sex and you describe them as such - I know some people would say calling a trans man a female is transphobic but I don’t think that is.

"I agree that a lot of blatant transphobia is rightly called out and deleted, but the fact that it’s there in the first place suggests that mumsnet has a problem with transphobia no?"

No. The problem would be if the transphobia is NOT deleted.

Do you realise how many transphobic posts are posted by people to portray MN as transphobic? Do you also realise that there are transphobic posts from people who are supposedly trans supporters on threads? The number of posters who indicate they are transgender and then declare that other people are not transgender?

So, no. I disagree. MN doesn't have a 'problem' with transphobia because it deletes transphobic posts, it doesn't leave them up. It is a public website accessible to everyone. That would be like saying any website in the world allowing comments to be published has a problem with transphobia.

Discriminating against someone because they are trans?

Ok. So can you give some examples of when you've seen that happen on here?

Wow! Fuck them. We can and will discuss whatever we like including women's rights.

Discriminating against someone because they are trans?

That's the sleight of hand isn't it? Wanting single sex spaces and fairness in sport is discriminating on the basis of SEX not because someone is trans. Segregating on the basis of sex was respecting as an essential part of safeguarding until about 5minutes ago, now it's transphobic even though it has nothing to do with someone's trans identity.

Exactly. A huge proportion of this would sort itself out if we push back, hard, against this conflation of sex and gender.

Being TransGENDER, should not impact any of your general rights, of course not. But it doesn't mean you have any rights to SEX specific spaces other than your own

That’s what I’m saying. To want single sex spaces is obviously a reasonable request, wishing ill on someone simply because they identify as trans is not. I’ve said repeatedly on this thread that I don’t think it’s transphobic to want single sex spaces protected, nor to identify someone by sex rather than their preferred gender.

wishing ill on someone simply because they identify as trans is not.

Yet we're still waiting for evidence that anyone has done this.

"Just because there are some “fake” trans women who are taking advantage of things it does not mean we have a right to bigotry."

For instance, this post could be potentially transphobic. Is this poster really trying to say that a person who says they are trans, is not trans? Unless that person then admits they were 'faking' it, they have to be taken at their word that they are trans.

This is interesting, because if someone 'claimed' to be female person and did something as a female person it could very easily verified with medical checks. And then proved to be false.

I don't recall anyone of the female sex saying 'they are faking being female' when another female person for their actions. Yet, here we see that in action with a post saying' “fake” trans women who are taking advantage of things.

I do very much hope that you are policing discussion on other Internet sites as vigilantly as Mumsnet. I only really use Twitter in addition to MN, but there's any amount of really hurtful, hateful material that gets posted there and isn't deleted. I imagine it's worse on more male-oriented sites.

I have no interest at all in other people political opinions

To want single sex spaces is obviously a reasonable request, wishing ill on someone simply because they identify as trans is not.

You've failed to provide any evidence of posters here wishing someone ill because they are trans.

Wanting single sex spaces is transphobic according to the TRA's, that would make you a TERF. Here's what wishing someone ill looks like:

terfisaslur.com/

Yep

The vote is currently 94% to 6%. Every time there's a poll on this issue I'm struck by how few votes the most powerful lobby can muster.

I can’t remember off the top of my head many posts, but even if you take that “Oh well” post in relation to trans people experiencing complications with surgery, it’s so dismissive and uncalled for, and just plain nasty imo.

So with all the time you seem to spend on here, you still can’t produce any actual examples of this terrible transphobia beyond someone being slightly under-sympathetic to a trans person’s situation?

By your definition of transphobia: Discriminating against someone because they are trans?

even that wasn’t transphobic.

So please either produce some actual examples or stop accusing us of something we haven’t done. You fail to understand that many of us know trans people either as family members or friends and acquaintances. We do not wish ill on them and have a lot of sympathy for people who are experiencing genuine distress.

However we are also members of society with human rights as well as basic requirements for our safety and privacy so we are entitled to advocate for our needs.

It is not transphobic to acknowledge that women are a distinct sex class from men and that sex is not the same as gender identity. It is also not transphobic to advocate for our sex based rights.

Why do you think I spend so much time on here? When I am on here, I read threads that interest me. I tend to steer clear of the feminism board because a lot of it is thread after thread about trans people. I don’t think that’s the biggest issue facing women’s rights at the minute - shocking, I know. I have seen transphobic posts on here multiple times, but I don’t bookmark them to save for times like this, perhaps I should. For the fourth (at least) time, I don’t think wanting single sex spaces is transphobic. I don’t think it’s transphobic to refer to someone as their biological sex. I do however think the post I quoted was transphobic because it is dismissing somebody’s surgical complications because the surgery they had was related to their trans identity. If someone had a mastectomy for health reasons, I very much doubt they’d have the same response. I’m not saying that they must be overly dramatic and sympathetic, but if they wouldn’t give the same response to a non-trans person, then surely that is transphobic. But someone will come with faux naivety and pretend because it doesn’t actually say “oh well they’re trans who cares anyway” that we can’t deduce that to be what they mean.

What do you mean 'discriminating'?

For example, wanting males to use a male toilet, if they say 'I'm a woman'...is this discrimination? Nobody is stopping them using the male toilets as far as I can see.

Wanting humans to not undergo breast or genital surgery and saying 'oh well' when they persist and then tell everyone what they are now experiencing [even though we've been banging on about the potential issues for years], is that discrimination?

What trans rights were you particularly concerned with in your dissertation? They have all the rights that everyone else has so what was your underlying premise?

So, you are saying that someone's mean reaction to botched extreme cosmetic surgery is transphobic?

What about the threads and shows of botched extreme cosmetic surgery? What do you then label them?

I am not saying that some people may be doing it from transphobia. But it could also have been a reaction similar to all the other elective extreme cosmetic surgery results that went wrong and you are here pushing your own agenda on those posters.

You are calling people's lack of sympathy for someone's botched extreme cosmetic surgery, one that is elective and done purely by choice by that person for reasons that are not reconstructive or necessary for that person's bodies to function as it was designed to do (ie. not removal or change of healthy body parts etc), phobic.

Honestly, I think a lot of the bashing of cosmetic surgery is rooted in internalised misogyny anyway, but that’s a whole other issue.