Cosmetic surgery DOES affect others

[EmmaDilemma5]

I'm sick of reading people who defend others cosmetic surgery/procedures with;

"it's their body, they can do as they please"

"Each to their own"

"If it makes them feel happier then what's the harm?"

The harm is, that it sets a ridiculous standard that most (usually young women) can't meet naturally and therefore feel pressured to undergo changes to their body to look "good".

It's not a personal decision, because collectively, it's impacting society norms and pressures on people.

I'm not talking about those that truly help people with abnormally different features. I totally get why someone with ears that grow out at 90° may want them pinned back. Or someone with a huge nose may want to reduce it to a more "normal" size. I still hope they'd feel fine in their own skin but get why the majority of people may struggle with largely unusual features.

But I am actually angry sometimes at those that "enhance" normal looks. Lip fillers, tattoo makeup on eyebrows, lips, boob jobs. It seems to me that the majority of women who have these procedures have very normal features before having them and it's just really sad that they feel they need to undergo them to feel ok.

Lip fillers are the worst for me. It's affordable and easy to arrange. I fear my daughter will grow up thinking her lips aren't big enough (if her parents' are anything to go by anyway) because every other person seems to have massive lips and to look beautiful she'll need to pump her face with crap.

When do we say, enough is enough, we don't want the next generation living like this?!

@Cileymyrus Shaving legs, going to the gym etc is not invasive, permanent or even semi permanent.

my “line” is putting foreign substances into your body and/or any medicalised procedure that can cause harm.

people have died from cosmetic surgery, lipo, teeth.

Overuse of fillers/Botox etc is to enhancements what obsessive body building is to 'going to the gym'. People have died from unhealthy exercise regimes and eating disorders.

Anything taken to extreme is unhealthy and potentially dangerous. You are conflating any use of injectables to 'crazy overuse that makes people look weird'. That's like saying any use of the gym/eating plan is the same as body dysmorphic over training and an eating disorder.

You draw the line at injecting substances. Others draw the line at surgery. Others draw the line at wearing makeup.

I agree with you OP and think it's an industry designed to make money out of, largely, women by inventing problems we didn't know we had.

Basic marketing and money making principle: invent a problem, tell people they have a problem, sell something as a solution.

I also think we all, to a greater or lesser degree fall into the trap because it's everywhere.

It's so pervasive that some people like to think they're very enlightened and not at all influenced by this. They just happen to have decided that age lines/thin lips/hairy legs/pale skin/insert whatever is the most recent invented problem here is an issue that needs addressing.

Same with children's clothing. Girls' clothing is often tighter, shorter, more sexualised from a young age than clothing aimed at boys, with a lot of effort and marketing into pushing the girls = pretty and enjoy beautifying themselves , and some people will argue that it's pure coincidence that those girls grow into women who also continue to fit that model and spend a fortune on beauty treatments.

I don’t think anyone is denying what the beauty industry is about.

But if you sue your hair, shave your legs, by clothes you think will suit you or wear make up, you’re no less part of it than someone who gets Botox.

I am laughing at the attempts at profound insight of something a six year old says. Sometimes kids just talk absolute bollocks for no reason. Encouraging a six year old to ditch certain friends may mean you keep them away from the infernal abomination that is the mum who uses fillers, but guaranteed to turn your child into a nasty piece of work who thinks they’re better than others.

Smoking in any amount is just plain unhealthy (and stupid), the jury is still out on vaping and I'm not sure how having the occasional glass of wine, a greasy burger or a can of coke is really comparable to having regular fillers or botox. I kind of agree with Cileymyrus above insofar as the lack of long term studies on how these procedures can potentially affect your health. 20+ years ago people were lying on sunbeds down the gym twice a week whereas now dermatologists are telling us that even doing that twice a year is not advisable.

‘It's so pervasive that some people like to think they're very enlightened and not at all influenced by this.’

It is weird that seemingly bright women don’t understand this.

I too am part of the problem. I shave my legs. Growing up in the 80s it was the done to do so I started doing it. So now in the summer I have to shave my legs otherwise I feel self-conscious. The same goes for armpits.

I have completely been brainwashed by society to think that women have to do this. It is of course an incredibly sexist phenomenon. My teenage daughter now shaves her legs. I make no excuses; I am perpetuating a sexist concept.

I wonder if in 20 or 30 years, Botox will be as ubiquitous as shaving legs? We have a chance to stop this and nip it in the bud. Now we are more aware of sexism and the exploitative nature of the beauty industry. So it will not become another beauty burden on our daughters in the future. But so many women cannot see this as being a problem so I guess it will continue on the up. I feel it is a real shame. I would never want a ban though; women have choices and are free to do as they wish of course.

I think in fifty years, generations will be shocked that people actually used sunbeds. They are so damn dangerous. It’s disgusting that they are legal. This is the one beauty ‘treatment’ that we should consider banning. Malignant melanoma is a truly dreadful illness.

Why do you think it all 'faux concern'? I coach down my local rowing club, the senior women's squad is full of extremely fit 20 something athletes who are training several times a week on land and water in order to compete at local, national and in some cases international events. They take it seriously, no one smokes, most don't drink, they follow sports specific diets and generally look after themselves. They all look amazing, healthy, toned, glowing and in shape. In recent years though I have noticed a few starting to adopt the 'love island' look, fillers, bleached teeth, lots of make up (which seems odd at 6am when you are about to rattle off 20 km on the water). You mention choices, I think it is just sad that these young women who by any yardstick are healthy and look amazing are 'choosing' these treatments when (in my opinion) they are simply not needed. I'm not seething at all, just feel a bit sad at the trend I am winessing.

Women who tweak their faces to make their wrinkles less visible affects you because you can't lip read them? Does that mean you then find it hard to lip read younger people who don't have wrinkles or thinner ages lips yet? Young wrinkle free people with naturally full lips?

I'm sorry but what a load of bollocks.

I have noticed a few starting to adopt the 'love island' look, fillers, bleached teeth, lots of make up (which seems odd at 6am when you are about to rattle off 20 km on the water). You mention choices, I think it is just sad that these young women who by any yardstick are healthy and look amazing are 'choosing' these treatments when (in my opinion) they are simply not needed

The case you mention isn’t about ageing at all though.

The abovementioned girls have adopted a certain aesthetic. Tbh I think that aesthetic is not very nice (putting it lightly), but I suspect they don’t care about what adults think about it, as it’s popular in their peer group.

Body modification is a thing across all cultures and some of it can be pretty extreme (foot binding, scarification, full-body tattoes, etc). You can’t get rid of that human impulse, although many religions have tried. If you are outside that culture, you will likely think it’s just repulsive 🤷‍♀️

I really think it has naught to do with anti-ageing treatments and more to do with body modification (tho granted some of the tools to achieve the look are the same)

@StarDolphins

I'm actually finding this very confusing. You seem like you're being as judgmental as your daughter's friends. Botox and big car = shallow. Eyeliner is ok but false lashes aren't (not an adopter myself, but I wouldn't write off someone who was), so you have superior values if you only line your eyes? What if you use mascara? Does that place you morally half way between the eyeliner only and false lashed people?

I do care about how I look and enjoy material comfort. I have Botox, a big house and big car (electric, though), but also spend as much time as possible outdoors, walk the dogs, work in the charitable sector and donate my salary back, and volunteer time and money outside of work. Where does that place me on your scale of worthiness?

I do agree, of course, about emphasising values you care about to your children, but I think you're being extremely superior and judgmental. The values I try to impart to mine are not to judge people by their surface.

Oh, and the thing about emphasising the other natural mums to your daughter? Some of them might not be as natural as you think.

Some of them might not be as natural as you think

I was thinking this too …

I can only comment on my own experiences & the girls I know with showy, very image conscious are indeed shallow & insecure. Indeed there will be exceptions, I just haven’t met any.

I emphasise the more natural
Mums as an offset to the ones that (to me) look like they’re auditioning for Love Island. It’s just giving my DD an alternative to what she’s fixated on.

I want her to be a stable, happy adult that accepts herself for her individuality rather than comparing herself to carbon copies of what SM tells her she should be.

infact, I want image to be way down the list above many other things. I also don’t want her to believe rich or poor aren’t equal. I don’t even want her to think about this.

I might be judgemental( I will openly admit, I don’t personally like this look) but I don’t say anything to my DD other than give her an alternative - I.e it’s ok to look like a scarecrow that hasn’t had time to look in the mirror- like Mummy!

FarFromObvious
Totally agree with you, which is why it's hilarious seeing people arguing that injecting cocktails of who knows what into their faces and having surgery to remedy something that isn't actually wrong, but society says isn't a beauty ideal, is comparable with putting an item of clothing you like.

Girls are groomed from a young age to focus on being pretty and looking nice. We're all part of it to a greater or lesser degree, because we are brought up in this society, just some folk don't want to accept that their choices are largely driven by them swallowing decades of sexist crap so will tell you it's all super empowering.

My decision wasn't based on largely swallowing sexist crap. 😂😂😂😂
Nobody is forcing everyone to invest their time to look at social media at these people having work done. Maybe don't look if you don't like it.
My decision was destroyed my face and changed my skin and I wasn't happy with the way I looked.

I now am, thanks to the subtle work I've had done.

Just because you've not had any work done, it doesn't make you any of a better person than I. It just makes you sound miserable and judgemental.
I'd rather have had tweaks done to my face, than be a miserable judgemental woman and have haggard skin. ✌🏼

*Just because you've not had any work done, it doesn't make you any of a better person than I. It just makes you sound miserable and judgemental.

I'd rather have had tweaks done to my face, than be a miserable judgemental woman and have haggard skin. ✌🏼*

It's not an either or

Can’t get worked up about it if people want to do these things to themselves. Mostly because I think the results are often pretty bad but otherwise, why should it affect me?
Lots of people are far more beautiful than I am without all this stuff. That’s never bothered me either 🤷‍♀️

Maybe next time try directing that to the disgusting women in here calling me 'blown up' 'bulbous' etc then.

The funny thing is I haven't even had lip filler 😂

I agree, OP. It's so hard to resist societal pressure to look "better". I have tiny breasts (AA cup) and a very athletic figure. In my head, I'd look much better with larger breasts, but then where does it stop? I'm not short of money, but what sort of example would I be setting my little boy, or my nieces? Plus the risks of surgery - fine for medical reasons, but I'd not risk leaving 5-year-old DS without his mother so I can look "better". Fortunately DH agrees that it would be a bloody stupid thing to do, so if I'm having a wobble I talk to him.

I can only comment on my own experiences & the girls I know with showy, very image conscious are indeed shallow & insecure.

This is a subjective and personal judgement. Who's the authority on what makes a person shallow? Some would say it's pretty shallow to make character judgements of people based on their beauty treatments.

It's rather an easy way of feeling superior but there's no substance to it.

So what do you think about tattoos? Is that okay according to your standards or not?

Similarly, some people don't want to admit that their judgements and the insults they direct at other women are also based in sexist crap.
The sexist crap that holds women responsible for creating beauty standards.
The sexist crap that leads to women calling other women ugly in an attempt to score points in a debate.
That attributes negative personality traits to women based on how they choose to present themselves.
That suggests we are too stupid to judge our own appearance, so weak willed we can't make our own decisions and too lacking in awareness to understand societal contexts.
In short, the sexist crap that suggests we are too stupid to understand sexist crap.

Is there anything more sexist than the assumption that a woman who chooses an aesthetic that you don't care for is somehow lacking in intelligence or goodness?

You’re going to call my lived experience of a disability “bollocks”?

Yes it does affect me when people’s faces don’t move naturally because of filler and botox. They don’t make the same shapes with their mouths and the words look different.

it’s not about whether people have wrinkles or full lips, your example of young people is ridiculous. Their faces still move. When lips are injected with filler they move differently.

you aren’t sorry, you’re mocking a disability.

Yes it does affect me when people’s faces don’t move naturally because of filler and botox. They don’t make the same shapes with their mouths and the words look different

tbh this doesn’t sound right because you wouldn’t even know who has got Botox and who has not. Yes, sometimes it can be really obvious but a lot of times it really is not.

Fillers don’t immobilise muscles, they don’t work the same way as Botox so you cannot really lump them into the same category, their effects are just too different.

sometimes it can be really obvious but a lot of times it really is not
What's the point in getting it then?