Page 8 | to not know if this offensive?

Catnary · 2023-01-17T22:49:20+00:00

Colleague in canteen queue today, I comment that the food looks tasty. She makes a face, points to the label and says “Yeah but look, I’m not eating that!” Label says “Halal beef casserole”. I say “but it’s just a different way of slaughtering the cow” ”Yeah I know, that’s what I mean, it’s SO cruel. I can’t have that on my conscience.” This was all very loud and other people overheard. Neither colleague nor I are Muslim but many other colleagues are. I felt very uncomfortable, didn’t engage, and ordered the beef. Is this just no different to a vegetarian declaring loudly that they couldn’t possibly be so cruel as to eat meat, or is it a slur on Muslims? It felt inappropriate, especially at work.

Simonjt · 18/01/2023 09:25

Emotionalsupportviper · 18/01/2023 08:53

I would agree - there is no "good" death for the animals we eat, but Halal (and, I understand, Kosher) meat is killed without stunning, with the animals fully conscious and aware. This is particularly cruel.

Cruelty is built into the system, though whatever the killing method, especially since small local slaughterhouses were closed and the large "production line" ones instituted so that only a few serve the country. This means that many animals are crowded into trucks, often for a couple of days at a time, deprived of food, often deprived of water, and shut up in horrible crowded conditions, frightened and distressed.

For the record, I used to be vegetarian but am not now, though am trying to work back towards it.

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Almost all animals killed via halal slaughter in the UK are stunned.

Nimbostratus100 · 18/01/2023 09:26

Simonjt · 18/01/2023 09:25

Almost all animals killed via halal slaughter in the UK are stunned.

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really? I didnt know that

Dotjones · 18/01/2023 09:27

No it's not offensive, it's just a statement that the person would not want to eat meat that has been slaughtered in a particular way - throat slit to drain blood and being prayed over.

If you're not a muslim why on earth would you eat something that has had an islamic prayer said over it? Makes no sense, you believe that islam is wrong/inaccurate therefore eating something that has been slaughtered in a manner specifically and solely designed for people of that religion seems wrong.

I mean you could wear a t-shirt with allah written on it but why would you if you weren't a muslim? You don't believe in it, so why would you promote or support it?

Emotionalsupportviper · 18/01/2023 09:29

Simonjt · 18/01/2023 09:25

Almost all animals killed via halal slaughter in the UK are stunned.

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I understood thane of the requirements of Halal slaughter was that the animal was aware.

However, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

BananaBlue · 18/01/2023 09:30

@DeFacto Thanks for the explanation by this ‘I used to run a catering company. All meat was organic or free-range, so wouldn't have been halal.’ I thought you meant organic = not halal.

Do organic places not use slaughter houses?

NB I just googled organic halal and there’s good availability.

Simonjt · 18/01/2023 09:31

Nimbostratus100 · 18/01/2023 09:26

really? I didnt know that

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Stunning is perfectly fine for halal slaughter, around 95% in the UK are stunned as animals have to be alive at ‘slaughter’/bloody draining, they do not need to be conscious. In Kosher a stunned animal would be considered injured, which is why stunning isn’t permitted for kosher slaughter.

Simonjt · 18/01/2023 09:32

Emotionalsupportviper · 18/01/2023 09:29

I understood thane of the requirements of Halal slaughter was that the animal was aware.

However, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

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You’re wrong, around 95% of halal animals slaughter in the UK are stunned, they have to be alive when drained, not aware, stunning won’t kill an animal.

Original poster

Catnary · 18/01/2023 09:36

If you're not a muslim why on earth would you eat something that has had an islamic prayer said over it? Makes no sense, you believe that islam is wrong/inaccurate therefore eating something that has been slaughtered in a manner specifically and solely designed for people of that religion seems wrong.

I think you are on very dodgy ground saying that if someone is not Muslim they believe that Islam is wrong. And, personally, if I like the look of some food I will eat it without a second thought as to whether it bears religious significance for people who follow a particular religion. I can’t think of any religions that actively discourage non-believers from eating their food?

OP posts:

Nimbostratus100 · 18/01/2023 09:38

Noob2022 · 18/01/2023 09:19

As a Muslim (and inclusion champion in my workplace) yes the comment is offensive given the implied meaning.

Yes you can’t be sure what she actually meant but you're in the workplace not a social setting. she can have her opinions which she is entitled to, but she also needs to be mindful and respectful of others that work with and their beliefs/ religion. Ultimately the animals is dead if she doesn’t want to eat it that’s her choice but no need to make unnecessary comments.

i also expect halal food is presented as an option due to demand in the workplace from the number of Muslim colleagues you have. So like any inclusive employer your company is catering for these staff as well as others.

unless people like this are called out on this behaviour, it’ll just continue. And like many on the post and this thread will continue to think it’s ok.

There is a thin line between banter and discrimination, and open conversations without judgement is how we can educate others.

personally I would sit her down and let her know that her comment made you/ or could make others uncomfortable and why.

I completely disagree with you, this is neither "banter" or "discrimination" it is someone expressing that they feel a particular practice is cruel. They are totally within their rights to do so, and no one gets to try and strong arm them into keeping quiet, or gaslight others by trying to twist this into something that is morally wrong and needs to be "called out"

You carry on being offended if you want to - that is your right

I'm Jewish and 100% back up anyone who feels these methods of slaughter are cruel, and feels strongly enough to say so in public.

Hiding behind an ethnic origin or faith and saying people cant criticise an aspect of culture because of a blanket ban on speaking out against any aspect of that culture or faith is just an attempt to gag people and stifle free speech and slap down perfectly respectable points of view

I dont know what an "inclusion champion" is supposed to do, but surely not bully and divide people like this

WineDup · 18/01/2023 09:46

Dotjones · 18/01/2023 09:27

No it's not offensive, it's just a statement that the person would not want to eat meat that has been slaughtered in a particular way - throat slit to drain blood and being prayed over.

If you're not a muslim why on earth would you eat something that has had an islamic prayer said over it? Makes no sense, you believe that islam is wrong/inaccurate therefore eating something that has been slaughtered in a manner specifically and solely designed for people of that religion seems wrong.

I mean you could wear a t-shirt with allah written on it but why would you if you weren't a muslim? You don't believe in it, so why would you promote or support it?

One, as a vegetarian I believe that all animal slaughter is unethical, which includes halal or kosher.

However, I literally couldn’t care less if the cow listened to a Muslim prayer as it was dying. what could the possible harm be? The meat tastes the exact same. Do you eat out at all? Coz if so, we need to have words.

CountZacular · 18/01/2023 09:48

It’s ignorance. As PP stated, the vast, vast majority of halal meat in the UK is stunned before slaughter. The only key difference is the prayer.

In slaughterhouses in general, conditions can be poor and animals suffer needlessly. There’s also the poor treatment of workers too. The whole process is ‘inhumane’. But it seems it’s easier to ignore that and direct it at halal meat.

And as an aside, I do think there’s a time and place for some comments. Work is rarely a place to be political, and especially making moral judgments as people nearby are tucking into that food.

Willyoujustbequiet · 18/01/2023 09:52

larchforest · 18/01/2023 00:11

If the practices of any faith or tradition causes unnecessary suffering to any living creature, then I am not in favour of that practice, and will say so.

Method of slaughter, bullfighting, Palio of Siena, rodeos, none of them are necessary in a modern society.

This.

I agree with the colleague.

Original poster

Catnary · 18/01/2023 09:53

OK @Nimbostratus. Let’s imagine that you are at work and a chat goes like this:

Nice weekend Brenda?
Yeah, great thanks. My brother just had a baby boy actually!
Oh congratulations.
Yeah he’s gorgeous. Thing is though, my SIL is Jewish and she wants him to be circumcised. It’s so cruel and unnecessary, I can’t believe she’d do that to a child.

You are either in the chat or it’s loud and you overhear it. Would that be fine by you (and yes, the fact it is at work is relevant)?

OP posts:

CountZacular · 18/01/2023 09:53

If you're not a muslim why on earth would you eat something that has had an islamic prayer said over it? Makes no sense, you believe that islam is wrong/inaccurate therefore eating something that has been slaughtered in a manner specifically and solely designed for people of that religion seems wrong.

I understand the misconceptions around halal meat in the UK but this is batshit. What’s supposedly happened to the meat because it’s been prayed over? I’m atheist, and find all religions problematic. When I’m at my Christmas dinner and a prayer is said over the meal by family is it wrong for me to then eat it?

Nimbostratus100 · 18/01/2023 10:01

Catnary · 18/01/2023 09:53

OK @Nimbostratus. Let’s imagine that you are at work and a chat goes like this:

Nice weekend Brenda?
Yeah, great thanks. My brother just had a baby boy actually!
Oh congratulations.
Yeah he’s gorgeous. Thing is though, my SIL is Jewish and she wants him to be circumcised. It’s so cruel and unnecessary, I can’t believe she’d do that to a child.

You are either in the chat or it’s loud and you overhear it. Would that be fine by you (and yes, the fact it is at work is relevant)?

YES! absolutely 100% completely and totally fine

What I would find offensive is someone deciding on my behalf that someone else freely express that they find a particularly practice cruel

I just cant emphasise this enough

There is more than enough discrimination in the world that NEEDS calling out, and tackling, without muddying the waters and making people feel upset and defensive for being in trouble expressing completely fair and relevant points of view about a practice they find cruel.

That sort of thought policing just causes all sorts of issues.

Brenda is upset about something that is happening to her nephew, and she has every right to be upset and to say so. The fact that this is happening becasue he is Jewish is irrelevant, she would be equally upset if it was happening becasue it is normal practice for an American baby, or whatever,

To be honest, I think the most offensive thing hear is that you seem to think I am too delicate and easily bruised to hear this

Lots of Jews would agree with Brenda, by the way

GerundTheBehemoth · 18/01/2023 10:01

TheLadyofShalott1 · 18/01/2023 02:45

I tried to be a vegetarian many years ago, I lasted 6 months. I have never, and can't ever, imagine me becoming a vegan. I don't think that any other type of "milk" on my cornflakes, or in my cup of tea, tastes acceptable, never mind nice. I also love cow and buffalow milk made cheeses.

But I do hate that calves are often taken away from their mums when they are less than a day old, I find that barbaric, so I wish that milk based products had to have printed on them whether they were left with their mums until normal weaning ages for cows, or taken straight away.

When I am shopping for eggs or poultry, I will usually only buy free range options, or barn bred ones, if temporarily needed while bird flu is around, and if apart from being in a barn, the birds are treated as well as is possible. However, on the rare occasions that I eat out at a restaurant, where you can't usuall tell where the meat has come from, I admit to just trying not to think about it.

I have very little spare money, but when I can give to any charities, it will usually be to ones concerned with the welfare of farmed animals (oh, and dog charities - except for the RSPCA). I don't go to Curry Houses any more, because I refuse to eat halal meat, and if anywhere else also admits to using halal meat, then I won't eat there either. My choices have nothing to do with any religion, and yes, if asked, I would be vocal about them.

If I ever knew anyone who is involved in feeding chicks into those awful crushing machines, I would be very tempted to tip them into it.

Here's a directory of UK dairies where calves stay with their mothers. There are not very many of them. This is important to me too. Most don't offer delivery but Old Hall Farm in Norfolk does so I buy milk from there. It's expensive but I use v little (and buy it in bulk and freeze it): www.cowcalfdairies.co.uk/

saraclara · 18/01/2023 10:09

Assuming that her comment was only to you, not aimed at any Muslims nearby, and was purely about the slaughtering method, she wasn't being offensive.

I'm sure that I eat halal meat 'accidentally' fairly often. But I don't consciously buy it. Yes, eating meat at all is questionable, but the halal method crosses a line for me.

Original poster

Catnary · 18/01/2023 10:10

Nimbostratus100 · 18/01/2023 10:01

YES! absolutely 100% completely and totally fine

What I would find offensive is someone deciding on my behalf that someone else freely express that they find a particularly practice cruel

I just cant emphasise this enough

There is more than enough discrimination in the world that NEEDS calling out, and tackling, without muddying the waters and making people feel upset and defensive for being in trouble expressing completely fair and relevant points of view about a practice they find cruel.

That sort of thought policing just causes all sorts of issues.

Brenda is upset about something that is happening to her nephew, and she has every right to be upset and to say so. The fact that this is happening becasue he is Jewish is irrelevant, she would be equally upset if it was happening becasue it is normal practice for an American baby, or whatever,

To be honest, I think the most offensive thing hear is that you seem to think I am too delicate and easily bruised to hear this

Lots of Jews would agree with Brenda, by the way

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There was never any prospect of you saying that you were anything other than completely fine about it. But you’re missing my fundamental point. This is not about whether Brenda should or should not express this opinion. It is about her saying this loudly, in the workplace, when nobody asked her for her opinion and it was not relevant to her job.

And you may be quite happy to speak for all members of your religion, but I think I will continue to go about my professional life erring on the side of caution and pausing before making strident public criticisms of religious practices.

OP posts:

Nimbostratus100 · 18/01/2023 10:13

Catnary · 18/01/2023 10:10

There was never any prospect of you saying that you were anything other than completely fine about it. But you’re missing my fundamental point. This is not about whether Brenda should or should not express this opinion. It is about her saying this loudly, in the workplace, when nobody asked her for her opinion and it was not relevant to her job.

And you may be quite happy to speak for all members of your religion, but I think I will continue to go about my professional life erring on the side of caution and pausing before making strident public criticisms of religious practices.

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what are you talking about? You asked me if I would be OK about it, I told you I am, you say there was never any prospect of me saying I wasn't?

I am not speaking for all members of Judaism, and I never said I was, and if someone Jewish disagrees with me then we would have to agree to disagree.

You are not "erring on the side of caution" though, you are calling people offensive for having a point of view about a practice they think is cruel - that is very much NOT erring on the side of caution

Nimbostratus100 · 18/01/2023 10:17

Catnary · 18/01/2023 10:10

There was never any prospect of you saying that you were anything other than completely fine about it. But you’re missing my fundamental point. This is not about whether Brenda should or should not express this opinion. It is about her saying this loudly, in the workplace, when nobody asked her for her opinion and it was not relevant to her job.

And you may be quite happy to speak for all members of your religion, but I think I will continue to go about my professional life erring on the side of caution and pausing before making strident public criticisms of religious practices.

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How do you feel about people criticising female genital mutilation, which happens in some fundamentally Christian communities.

Presumably you would hush up anyone criticising this, call them "strident" and say they shouldn't publicly criticise religious practices?

Your argument is that no "religious practice" can be discussed, or have an opinion expressed about it in public - that makes you in favour of keeping quiet about FGM?

Testingprof · 18/01/2023 10:19

Nimbostratus100 · 18/01/2023 08:52

What are you talking about? The slaughter methods are similar, and they are normally spoken of together, the only difference being the amount of halal meat is many orders of magnitude greater than the amount of kosher meat

I have no idea what "disingenuous" means or "dog whistle"

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Exactly. That’s the point the slaughter methods are similar except 95% of animals slaughtered for halal meat is stunned prior to being slaughter in comparison to 0% of animals for kosher meat. I’ve never heard of people complaining about kosher meat being inhumane. Why do you think that people complain about halal meat and not kosher?

Nimbostratus100 · 18/01/2023 10:23

Testingprof · 18/01/2023 10:19

Exactly. That’s the point the slaughter methods are similar except 95% of animals slaughtered for halal meat is stunned prior to being slaughter in comparison to 0% of animals for kosher meat. I’ve never heard of people complaining about kosher meat being inhumane. Why do you think that people complain about halal meat and not kosher?

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I often hear people complain that kosher slaughter is inhumane
There are several orders of magnitude more Halal meat than Kosher

Nimbostratus100 · 18/01/2023 10:24

I did not know that most UK Halal meat was stunned, and I am glad to hear it if so - I think a lot of my Muslim friends are of the belief that it is not stunned

Jazzy21 · 18/01/2023 10:27

It is a cruel way to kill an animal, and I don’t think having that opinion in isolation makes someone anti-Muslim. However I probably wouldn’t mention this in a work based setting, just as I’d steer away from any conversation that could be taken to heart or cause upset with a work colleague. I don’t have time for that!

Vallmo47 · 18/01/2023 10:27

@Fifteenicecreams What your son said was so cute!! 😂♥️

I personally think you’re entitled to have an opinion. Maybe your colleague could have been a bit more tactful, but I’m sure the catering staff didn’t mind- they’ve been told to offer this option, doesn’t mean they would buy it themselves or heavily promote it.