to not know if this offensive?

[Catnary]

Colleague in canteen queue today, I comment that the food looks tasty. She makes a face, points to the label and says “Yeah but look, I’m not eating that!”

Label says “Halal beef casserole”.

I say “but it’s just a different way of slaughtering the cow”

”Yeah I know, that’s what I mean, it’s SO cruel. I can’t have that on my conscience.”

This was all very loud and other people overheard. Neither colleague nor I are Muslim but many other colleagues are. I felt very uncomfortable, didn’t engage, and ordered the beef.

Is this just no different to a vegetarian declaring loudly that they couldn’t possibly be so cruel as to eat meat, or is it a slur on Muslims? It felt inappropriate, especially at work.

Many Jews and Muslims boycott halal and kosher meat because they feel the slaughter methods are unnecessarily cruel - if they boycott non kosher/halal meat too, then their only option is vegetarianism.

Of course you can have strong opinions on animal welfare without being racist or offensive, your assumption that Muslims cant take someone disagreeing with some aspect of Islam, and your attempt to police someone elses freedom of speech is probably more offensive, tbh

As someone who has comfortably made the slow journey from meat at all meals to fish once a week with vegan meals daily, i think it's hypocritical to query which way of killing an animal is best. Obviously there are better and worse ways, but this is not the debate to be having.

As for religion, I'm not respectful of any religion. I respect people, not "gods".

we frequently use 4 Indian restaurants and they’re all run by Muslims

I would hazard a guess that they are probably not 'Indian'.

@Simonjt ah yes, as a PP noted it is possible to get free-range organic meat that is also halal, but that is a niche market! A quick Google tells me a company in the UK called Abraham's is a supplier of ethical halal meat.

It was many years ago I worked in catering and my emphasis was on free-range/organic, any customer who required kosher or halal would probably have not come to me!

You are being disingenuous. The issue is people boycott halal and make a massive song and dance about it but you don’t have the same people complaining about Kosher meat where they never stun the animal.

I’m a meat eater and I’m happy to talk about humane meat eating but not when the dog whistles are going off. Some people who moan about halal meat are also happy to eat battery hens/eggs where they debeak them to stop them pecking each other to death.

If she’s deliberately said it loudly within earshot of Muslim colleagues and/or kids (which I’m getting the vibes is the case) , then yes, it’s deliberately offensive, and she’s a scumbag.

but this place is turning more and more into an extension of the Daily Mail comments section, so most will disagree.

Where have I insisted that it was a slur? I’ve conceded that it was basically just rude, given the time and place it was said. I think it’s interesting that so many people invoke the sacrosanct concept of free speech when really they are just rude.

And a lot of meat in supermarkets us also halal. The cuts that are not required are sold without the halal label.

In exactly the same way 'surplus' organic fruit and veg is sold, without the label and the additional price hike. The producer gets paid less and the supermarket gets kudos for its variety.

This.

I think your colleague is entitled to their opinion and I feel the same that it imposes unnecessary suffering during the slaugter of animals. I wouldnt say it loudly however, for fear of offending Muslim colleagues.
I would do what you did, go quiet and not engage in further conversation. But neither would I judge my colleague for expressing their opinion, only for saying it loudly (if they did).

I watched a documentary years ago by a man that went to slaughter houses to compare them. He was hoping he could gat Halal slaughter houses banned in Britain because of perceived cruelty. At the end of the documentary he had totally changed his view. Non Halal animals were obviously frightened, herded together, could smell and hear the animals in front going through the process. The stun gun didn't always work and the terrified animals had to endure even worse.
The Halal butcher brought each animal through individually, calmly and kindly, said a prayer and then slaughtered the animal so quickly it didn't have time to realise what was happening. They hosed down before the next animal was brought through. I had been prepared to join the investigator in campaigning to get rid of Halal butchers in Britain. Instead, I ended up, like him, changing my mind.

I think the same as your colleague.

I am vegetarian and I completely disagree with cruel halal and kosher slaughtering and I really don't care if anyone gets offended about that...

Even when I still ate meat years ago I would not touch halal or kosher meat.

This a matter of animal welfare which to me is more important that religion.

I would stop trying hard to be offended and learn more about these disgusting practices.

Please someone tell me what type of slaughter isn't cruel?
lf you don't like the thought of halal but eat meat then you are a huge hypocrite!

I'd say not offensive. People that do eat halal say the same about not eating non halal.

In an abstract conversation about food preferences, commenting that she wouldn’t choose to eat halal meat obviously does seem innocuous, but I’m not sure why some people are unable to see the subtext in making a public song and dance about this particular kind of slaughter when you’ve never voiced an opinion on animal welfare.

OP you’ll know best the tone it was said in and the implied meaning and thus whether she was being a dick. Free to say it! But a dick.

Would the same apply to commenting on not wanting to eat pork (including bacon for those who have read that thread!)?

I don't think your colleague was out of order, she made an informed choice not to eat the beef just as you did to eat it.

There is a petition here:
www.rspca.org.uk/getinvolved/campaign/slaughter

What are you talking about? The slaughter methods are similar, and they are normally spoken of together, the only difference being the amount of halal meat is many orders of magnitude greater than the amount of kosher meat

I have no idea what "disingenuous" means or "dog whistle"

I would agree - there is no "good" death for the animals we eat, but Halal (and, I understand, Kosher) meat is killed without stunning, with the animals fully conscious and aware. This is particularly cruel.

Cruelty is built into the system, though whatever the killing method, especially since small local slaughterhouses were closed and the large "production line" ones instituted so that only a few serve the country. This means that many animals are crowded into trucks, often for a couple of days at a time, deprived of food, often deprived of water, and shut up in horrible crowded conditions, frightened and distressed.

For the record, I used to be vegetarian but am not now, though am trying to work back towards it.

@Emotionalsupportviper

I am the same as you, ideally would be vegetarian, but dont acheive that ideal wholly. Still, every time we make a decision on the side of vegetarianism, it is a plus, it doesn't have to be 100% to have an effect

I only eat locally produced meat from small suppliers. I would argue that a local, seasonal and ethical omnivorous diet it the most sustainable and kind to the planet.

I live in an area of the UK entirely unsuited to arable crops. I am surrounded by sheep who happily graze uplands. Unfortunately, due to regulations, livestock has to be transported for slaughter, I wish that it were not so but I do not have the time to raise my own livestock. I have shot wild game, caught fish and slaughtered a chicken for personal consumption, but that was 20 years ago when I had a brief 'living off the land' phase. I don't have time for that now so am comfortable eating the best meat I can.

I'd quite happily argue that almonds, avocados, and unseasonal fruit are more problematic from both an environmental and human point of view than eating local sheep in an Northern European uplands winter.

@DeFacto

sorry for my ignorance but what stops organic food from being halal?

I thought:

1. Organic food meant free from pesticides, allowed to roam free.
2. Surely an organic animal can be stunned then slaughtered with a prayer over a rabbit making it halal?

Can you explain why most organic cannot be halal?

I really think that meat is addictive, @Nimbostratus100 .

I was veggie for years, then was very unwell and had to eat meat again (it was complex, and also related also to a bereavement -I have no physical or mental energy). Anyhow, I fully intended to go back to vegetarianism when I was sorted, but have found it very difficult. (And, I'll be honest - as the rest of the family eat meat, it is just easier. Which is an appalling "reason".)

@BananaBlue, sorry, you misunderstand me, maybe I wasn't clear.

It's entirely possible for halal meat to be free-range or organic. It's just that it's not widely available in this country as most organic suppliers have a market that they cater to, it's a premium product and to also be halal would make it very niche. There are suppliers that produce halal organic meat but they are few and far between and it is an expensive product as it's not widely sought after.

very interesting post

As a Muslim (and inclusion champion in my workplace) yes the comment is offensive given the implied meaning.

Yes you can’t be sure what she actually meant but you're in the workplace not a social setting. she can have her opinions which she is entitled to, but she also needs to be mindful and respectful of others that work with and their beliefs/ religion. Ultimately the animals is dead if she doesn’t want to eat it that’s her choice but no need to make unnecessary comments.

i also expect halal food is presented as an option due to demand in the workplace from the number of Muslim colleagues you have. So like any inclusive employer your company is catering for these staff as well as others.

unless people like this are called out on this behaviour, it’ll just continue. And like many on the post and this thread will continue to think it’s ok.

There is a thin line between banter and discrimination, and open conversations without judgement is how we can educate others.

personally I would sit her down and let her know that her comment made you/ or could make others uncomfortable and why.