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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Dogs capable of sending us to hospital/the morgue need to be banned

305 replies

SplishSplashIWasTakingABath · 16/01/2023 11:51

Yet another serious dog attack.

uknip.co.uk/Breaking/News/breaking/woman-rushed-to-hospital-after-attack-by-dog-in-the-street/?fbclid=IwAR3bVa7T5KdsbfMlHZqg8CjSCFIkSVJtGYjB8iAZJ5_2C2Rv4tomNMO1ask

YANBU - ban these dogs (bully breeds, huskies, Dobermans etc)
YABU - aw, poor pibbles, must have been provoked

OP posts:
MoscowMules · 17/01/2023 12:39

Greatly · 16/01/2023 19:30

Maybe because there aren't many of them in the uk. Malinois and mastiff type dogs have killed people in Europe and the Usa.

True, mastiffs are not a "popular" breed. They are hefty expensive to buy and to feed + vet bills.

They also have a low life expectancy compared to most breeds, so people are put off by this.

However mastiffs are a guarding breed, they don't have a prey drive and they are aloof to strangers. They basically take no notice of other humans unless that human encroaches on their territory. Now a well socialised and trained mastiff, is trained to accept guests into the house, to behave appropriately around strangers.

People have tried to use mastiffs as fighting dogs, but they aren't a fighting dog, just because they are big doesn't mean they have the "aggression" of a fighter.

Luckily the mastiffs are not being chosen as a status dog, hence why so many XL bully things exist.

Hellsmovie · 17/01/2023 14:59

theycallmejane · 17/01/2023 12:21

At least one person made a flippant comment about banning men, given they're also capable of violence. But I think there's a point there. Any race of man and any breed of dog can kill us. It doesn't matter which ones you think are more dangerous based on what you've seen or read or any inherent prejudices - they're all capable of it.

Most grown dogs and grown men who attack do so because they were failed in their upbringing. When it comes to humans, we have social services who can intervene at an early stage if a medical professional tips them off during the initial pregnancy, or a teacher notices something troubling during their initial schooling.

Why don't we have an equivalent for dogs? I mean, we treat them as people a lot of the time - when we call them 'fur babies', we're only half joking. They're a part of the family.

Dogs, like little boys, can turn violent if they're mistreated. Or sometimes just if basic boundaries aren't taught.

Now, some dog owners know what they're doing, and if they attracted any brief attention, it would go away. But for the dog owners who don't know what they're doing, there should be more funded support to either working with them to train their dogs or to remove their dogs if they're not coping. Basically the equivalent of parenting classes, taking a child into care and respite care.

I've never seen a dog warden in my life, or heard of a positive intervention led by the RSPCA, but the RSPCA is a charity anyway, and this kind of activity should be led by the State.

People who shouldn't have babies and shouldn't own dogs will always find a way to get them. Licensing won't stop them. So we have to work to identity those at risk of becoming violent before they do, and to intervene.

Everything to do with dogs seems to be on a reactive basis rather than a proactive basis. It's sad to put down a dog when it only became a danger because a human taught it to be dangerous. (It's generally the only option at that stage, but if someone had taken the dog away from a bad owner when it was still a pup, it could have had a very different and more peaceful life.)

It doesn't make sense that the police are forced to intervene with violent dogs when there's a possibility for dogs to not become violent in the first place, thanks to intervention by dog specialists (who the police often aren't).

Woman are also capable of killing woman (and men) .

Iknowafew · 17/01/2023 15:07

There is no need to debate breeds and types of owners.
Even allegedly nice breeds should all be muzzled in public.

If a small dog attacks someone it’s obvious you are more likely to be able to fight it off.

Apparently 92% of all fatal dog attacks are carried out by male dogs, I think castration reduces their aggression. Maybe make that mandatory plus licences and those licences pay for wardens who can seize and destroy, any dog that does not have a licence or is not neutered unless the owner is a registered reputable breeder.

SirSniffsAlot · 17/01/2023 15:37

I think castration reduces their aggression

As always it is not that simple.

It reduces the threshold for aggression (i.e. how upset they need to be to aggress) but it also reduces confidence (meaning they get upset more easily and with less provocation).

Sweden has much lower castration rates than the UK and a slightly lower incidence rate for fatalities as a result of dog attack, so neutering is unlikely to make any real difference.

WineDup · 17/01/2023 16:22

Iknowafew · 17/01/2023 15:07

There is no need to debate breeds and types of owners.
Even allegedly nice breeds should all be muzzled in public.

If a small dog attacks someone it’s obvious you are more likely to be able to fight it off.

Apparently 92% of all fatal dog attacks are carried out by male dogs, I think castration reduces their aggression. Maybe make that mandatory plus licences and those licences pay for wardens who can seize and destroy, any dog that does not have a licence or is not neutered unless the owner is a registered reputable breeder.

All dogs should be muzzled in public?

I have a border collie and we need to play “fetch” to allow her to exercise her natural instinct to herd things.

Should we inhibit this by muzzling her, my own children would be significantly more likely to come to harm.

She’s a very gentle dog and we have conducted extensive training on both a group and 1:1 setting.

It’s also worth noting that many (most?) serious dog bites happen at home, rather than in a public setting.

Filamumof9 · 17/01/2023 16:26

MoscowMules · 17/01/2023 12:39

True, mastiffs are not a "popular" breed. They are hefty expensive to buy and to feed + vet bills.

They also have a low life expectancy compared to most breeds, so people are put off by this.

However mastiffs are a guarding breed, they don't have a prey drive and they are aloof to strangers. They basically take no notice of other humans unless that human encroaches on their territory. Now a well socialised and trained mastiff, is trained to accept guests into the house, to behave appropriately around strangers.

People have tried to use mastiffs as fighting dogs, but they aren't a fighting dog, just because they are big doesn't mean they have the "aggression" of a fighter.

Luckily the mastiffs are not being chosen as a status dog, hence why so many XL bully things exist.

Absolutely agree with this. We have Brazilian mastiffs, they may appear very intimidating but are a lot more easier to handle than other breeds that we had in the past. They are with the correct training very obedient indeed. However, terribly expensive for the Vet due to their sheer size

AllThingsServeTheBeam · 17/01/2023 16:31

Iknowafew · 17/01/2023 15:07

There is no need to debate breeds and types of owners.
Even allegedly nice breeds should all be muzzled in public.

If a small dog attacks someone it’s obvious you are more likely to be able to fight it off.

Apparently 92% of all fatal dog attacks are carried out by male dogs, I think castration reduces their aggression. Maybe make that mandatory plus licences and those licences pay for wardens who can seize and destroy, any dog that does not have a licence or is not neutered unless the owner is a registered reputable breeder.

I'm not muzzling my dog

Ludo19 · 17/01/2023 16:34

@tonystarksrighthand Oh I totally agree that ALL dogs should be trained properly just that the post was addressing big breeds.

I had a wee pal called Cindy who was a yorkie and she was an absolute darling. Your wee one sounds a character 🙂

Toooldtoworry · 17/01/2023 17:24

Some interesting points on this thread. I've seen many over the years and just scrolled by because most comments have been the usual hysteria.

I have historically worked with horses, and the yard owners dogs.

I have suffered 99% of my injuries from horses. Bitten, kicked, body slammed, etc. I have been bitten once by a dog, and that was a miniature poodle.

I now own 2 Staffordshire Bull Terrier's and an Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog (which is a rare breed in the UK, but essentially he will be 45/50kg when fully grown).

I decided that buying from a breeder was safer than rescuing because I wanted a certain temperament, etc. I chose show lines over working lines because they tend to be calmer. I visited multiple breeders and met parents of pups to see what they were like. I researched the dogs lines, the breeder themselves, etc until I was comfortable with what I was buying.

I also booked in with an excellent trainer who specialised in my specific breed and I take my dogs to that trainer regularly, even still now and my eldest 2 are 8 and 5.

I also have taught my children, and my step children how to interact with my dogs and what to watch out for re: dog body language.

It IS hugely important that a prospective dog owner not only research's the breed that would suit them thoroughly, but also identifies which type of dog from that breed they want and also a good breeder.

Sadly too many people see a dog breed on a film (malinios- John Wick) think they'd like a dog like that. Don't do the research, don't do the training and end up with an unmanageable animal that is going to end up PTS due to aggression or it attacks. Its really awful.

WiddlinDiddlin · 17/01/2023 18:00

It is a horribly complex issue.

What we need is more education - how to be safe around dogs, how to raise and train a dog safely and effectively, how to source a dog responsibly...

And some sort of registration/licence set up, that requires a basic test to show you have had the above education..

It needs to be affordable - if it isn't its discriminatory against those who are on a lower income, and if its unachievable you just push people to break the rules.

But... whilst all that would help, where does the money for it come from?

The previous licencing system was scrapped because it was costing more money to run than it generated. And back then we had more dog wardens and police had responsibility for strays.

We do not have the infrastructure for a useful licencing scheme nor an education scheme.

We do not have the ability to police and enforce the legislation we currently have, as it is left to local authorities in the main and they prioritise other things.

So we have fewer dog wardens - these are now typically provided by outside contractors rather than a part of the LA's environmental health dept, and stray kennel contracts go to the cheapest bidder.

We do not have regulations on dog training/behaviour providers, nor on the education providers who are training the trainers/behaviourists.

One of the people currently advising police is qualified only by his own organisations, ie those HE founded. His only formal qualification is as a police dog handler, back in the 70s/80s when police dog training was pretty brutal and frankly, dangerous.

The police are pretty much a closed book, they won't accept outside education from existing organisations except in very rare circumstances. They think their 'experts' are at the top of their game when in reality, thats a long way from the truth.

SO we don't even have a starting point for creating a licencing system that ensures people know what they're doing, or that can be policed and enforced effectively.

What will almost certainly happen is more knee-jerk legislation such as banning more breeds or insisting certain breeds or weights of dog wear muzzles, because that makes it LOOK like 'someone is doing something' and the real issues will continue to fester away under the surface.

Those two options are a real problem:

Banning a breed means banning x breeds of that breed, and because DNA testing cannot yet determine breed accurately (And probably never will) what you're left with is a system that must rely on measurements and proportions.

This means if your dog has the appearance that fits those criteria, it is illegal, if it doesn't, it isn't.

It has very little to do with whether the dog or owner are actually 'dangerous'.

Because you HAVE to include crosses of a type, not just pedigrees, and you can't use DNA... you instantly turn people into criminals when their crossbred puppy grows into a set of measurements.

You also tell people that specific sizes and shapes of dog are inherently dangerous and thus for certain people, desirable to own.

If you successfully seize and remove this particular make and model of dog, you simply drive those who wish to own intimidating, ego boosting breeds into developing a new breed that doesn't fit the measurements (and this is where we are at with the XL bullies, they're not illegal as they don't fit the measurements which are based on the American Pit Bull Terrier breed standard).

Muzzling dogs in public sounds like a solution... it really isn't.

It is a huge welfare issue - 'in public' applies to in your front garden, and in your car, not just walking down the street. So now imagine your dog is vomiting due to car-sickness or they've eaten something dodgy before leaving home. You take the muzzle off, in your car, to clean them up and prevent choking... instantly, you're breaking the law and whats the penalty, a fine? That would not be very effective (those without money or who just won't pay fines just don't pay fines!), so in reality, its seizing the dog.

Seizing the dogs not wearing muzzles requires people out there to spot this and police it - who are they? Police? Dog Wardens? We don't have enough of either, and most of the dogs they would be seizing will not be dangerous or a threat to the public...

Where do they put these dogs - most LA have access to one stray kennel that may take perhaps 20 seized dogs at a time (thats generous, most would have space for perhaps 5). They are NOT welfare friendly environments - dogs will get food, water, shelter, they will not get exercise, enrichment, human company, training, in some cases, they wont get adequate veterinary care either (they should, but the last 30 years has shown that they do not).

Thats a HUGE drain on taxpayer funds... and it won't do much to prevent bite incidents and fatalities.

Dogs can do serious injury whilst wearing a muzzle, they can bash you, they can nip you with the front teeth and most dogs can yank a muzzle off if they're loose and panicking. Muzzles work well with the dog held on a short lead, but once the dog is loose, they're nowhere near as effective as people think.

Muzzle wearing also affects natural behaviour (the body language involving their faces, lips, eyes, ears etc, all affected by muzzle wearing) so we'd likely see a decrease in socialisation between dogs and other dogs, and dogs and people as they can't communicate properly.

It also makes it much harder to train dogs when they're wearing a muzzle - you can't use toys, and using food as a reinforcer is harder too (you're limited to poking treats in through the muzzle, so you can't deliver reinforcers any other way).

We may also see an increase in fear based reactivity/aggression as a result of the diminished communication skills, lack of socialisation and the difficulty in training.
We're also likely to see that as many owners will assume their muzzled dog is now rendered totally harmless, and so they put the dog in situations it can't actually cope with...

But, most fatalities happen INSIDE someones home, on private land, where these dogs will not be muzzled.

So I would caution people, be careful what you ask for - the more people cry out for 'something to be done' and 'ban these breeds' and 'all dogs should be muzzled' the more likely it is we will get knee jerk legislation, that serves no useful purpose (if it did, then 30 years post Pitbull ban, we'd have no pitbulls and no fatalities from heavy bullbreed types...)..

When we get crappy, rushed legislation designed to appease the masses, we also make it far FAR harder to create effective and useful legislation. As far as government is concerned 'we've done what you asked, now go away'... for the next 30 years.

TheGuv1982 · 17/01/2023 18:14

MoscowMules · 17/01/2023 12:39

True, mastiffs are not a "popular" breed. They are hefty expensive to buy and to feed + vet bills.

They also have a low life expectancy compared to most breeds, so people are put off by this.

However mastiffs are a guarding breed, they don't have a prey drive and they are aloof to strangers. They basically take no notice of other humans unless that human encroaches on their territory. Now a well socialised and trained mastiff, is trained to accept guests into the house, to behave appropriately around strangers.

People have tried to use mastiffs as fighting dogs, but they aren't a fighting dog, just because they are big doesn't mean they have the "aggression" of a fighter.

Luckily the mastiffs are not being chosen as a status dog, hence why so many XL bully things exist.

The only time I’ve ever thought I’d need to fight a dog was when two Mastiffs pulled their owners down a slope to fight my rotti.

it was very much an “oh shite” moment.

Ricco12 · 17/01/2023 18:48

@Hellsmovie

"14 people in around 40yrs. Considering there is around 7.5k staffies in the uk it shows it's a extremely low risk"

There is way more SBT in Uk than that, only 20% are registered roughly which is that number. 80 % aren't registered.

When they quote most popular dog in UK they use KC registered dogs. Which often is Lab as No1

If you go by all dogs the SBT is by far the most popular dog in the Uk by quite a large %

WiddlinDiddlin · 17/01/2023 19:30

Worth keeping in mind too that another source for 'most popular breed' statistics, apart from KC registrations, is insurance companies.

Who insures dogs - responsible owners.

So statistics are skewed towards pedigree breeds reg with the KC, and insured animals - and they are still the minority compared to uninsured, crossbred/non registered dogs.

It may seem like there is an overwhelming problem with dog related injuries and fatalities but these events are reported on BECAUSE they are news.

We don't see reports on every child killed by a parent (1 child a week dies, 31% of those are killed by a parent) , or every person hit and killed by a car (8 per week!), because those things happen SO often.. they're not news.

Even events that are less common - deaths by cattle - in the same period, 2000 - 2020, 98 people were killed by cattle. 40 by dogs.

Hellsmovie · 17/01/2023 20:02

Ricco12 · 17/01/2023 18:48

@Hellsmovie

"14 people in around 40yrs. Considering there is around 7.5k staffies in the uk it shows it's a extremely low risk"

There is way more SBT in Uk than that, only 20% are registered roughly which is that number. 80 % aren't registered.

When they quote most popular dog in UK they use KC registered dogs. Which often is Lab as No1

If you go by all dogs the SBT is by far the most popular dog in the Uk by quite a large %

Agreed . I think it's about 7.5k registered staffies

WiddlinDiddlin · 20/01/2023 06:26

Not sure if this link will work...

But is it really any wonder we have an apparent increase in dog related injuries when this is the sort of shit people are posting around SM..

www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1366848164079701

(Video shows a total twat with his face pressed up against his snarling dog, as he beatboxes and manipulates the dogs face and throat to make it 'beatbox' with him. The dog does not actually bite him.)

This dog may be growling on cue, though I doubt it - but even if he is, the easily influenced people watching this crap will not know that, nor will they know how to train that safely.

The chances are high that this dog will bite his owner, that this dog will bite a friend or child known to the owner that attempts to do this, and that someone elses (or their child or childs friend) will attempt this with THEIR dog and get really badly bitten, or killed.

This is on top of the..

'Startle your dog by putting your face close to theirs then suddenly barking at them'

And

'Spread peanut butter on your face then clip your dogs nails as they lick it off (recommended and suggested as a way of clipping nails when the dog does not like it or won't tolerate it)

And various other, jump out and startle your dog, trick your dog, isn't it funny your dog is scared, heres a kid sitting or standing on the dog, plus ten billion videos of dogs clearly showing stress, fear, aggression, pain, avoidance/appeasement... all pitched as being funny or dopey or the dog knowing they did wrong, misleading people into wildly misunderstanding dog body language.

With the level of bullshit going on from humans, towards dogs, it is a bloody miracle there are not many many more severe injuries and fatalities.

caramac04 · 20/01/2023 09:40

@WiddlinDiddlin that clip is horrific, I’m a total dog lover with no fear of dogs but honestly I couldn’t watch it all. Something about the sound made my heart rate soar and me feel anxious.
I can only assume my instincts feel a threat.
I feel sorry for the dog with such a twat owner.

MoscowMules · 20/01/2023 11:45

Jesus that video....

That dog will snap one day, and the man will have to make a tick-tock with half his face missing.

But play stupid games, win silly prizes. 🤦🏻‍♀️

Jenasaurus · 20/01/2023 15:18

Relevant to this thread I have just had a scary moment, I opened the door and a dog came inside barking and jumping. It was a neighbour who had kindly taken in some parcels for my DD and dropped them off, but her off lead dog thought he was coming to visit and entered the house! I screamed ridiculously and she collected her dog, feel a bit embarrassed about it but my fear of dogs makes me react that way. He is probably just a friendly dog especially as off lead but it was a bit of a shock.

WiddlinDiddlin · 20/01/2023 15:34

caramac04 · 20/01/2023 09:40

@WiddlinDiddlin that clip is horrific, I’m a total dog lover with no fear of dogs but honestly I couldn’t watch it all. Something about the sound made my heart rate soar and me feel anxious.
I can only assume my instincts feel a threat.
I feel sorry for the dog with such a twat owner.

I only watched enough with the sound on to be certain he was doing what I thought he was doing, the sound plus the visual was too much and I have seen a LOT of dog behaviour videos, I don't watch 'em unless I have to now.

There is another one going round with someone teaching their (very stressed looking) pitbull to 'sit pretty', in a busy street, and a little kid runs up and boinks the dog over the head with an empty plastic bottle, owner shouts no etc, kid runs off..

And then the owner KEEPS ON asking the dog to perform tricks whilst the kid is still running around, still has the bottle in his hand, still isn't being managed by a parent... and does not remove his dog from the situation..

Super predictably, kid comes back, and does the same thing and eventually the owner has to put their hand in between kid and dog and restrain the dog as it does lunge and airsnap...

And the comments section when I suggest that the owner really SHOULD have taken their dog away to protect him, as the risk to the dog should he bite the kid is losing his LIFE... omg! No one seems to think they should advocate for and protect their dogs! It's not the dogs fault the kid is not correctly managed so... its fine to leave him to make a mistake that will cost him his life?! WTAF people!

Jenasaurus, I wouldn't have been best pleased in that situation myself, my dogs aren't at the door when I answer it but a dog running straight in here would still be an issue and a large unknown dog in a confined space, is not the kind of surprise I like, even as a doggy professional!

Shade17 · 20/01/2023 15:37

They don’t need to bite you to cause hospital visits though, I’ve been to sent to A&E by a lurcher as have many other sighthound owners with broken limbs. I don’t think they should be banned though!

Jenasaurus · 20/01/2023 21:58

@WiddlinDiddlin glad you said that, I just felt awkward, firstly I was grateful for her taking in the packages and didnt really show it as was shocked by the dog zooming inside, and secondly my over reaction by screaming, the dog is often off lead and seems OK, I did once take the scenic route to take the bins out as spotted him bouncing around by the bins. I think my fear is over the top but it makes it hard when I see news articles about dogs in the papers every week.

XenoBitch · 20/01/2023 22:04

Shade17 · 20/01/2023 15:37

They don’t need to bite you to cause hospital visits though, I’ve been to sent to A&E by a lurcher as have many other sighthound owners with broken limbs. I don’t think they should be banned though!

I am in some sighthound groups on FB.. and you are absolutely right! A hound doing a big ole zoomie can knock you to the ground in an instant. No aggression and no teeth. Just them being nuts!

WiddlinDiddlin · 20/01/2023 22:09

If you do want to deal with your fear, some dog trainers who run puppy classes will let people sit in a corner for part of or all of a class.

I've done this when I ran classes, with the person in a corner by the second exit door, barricaded with tables on their sides so no dog could actually approach and they could step out any time they wanted.

We'd start them out with a puppy class, and all dogs on leads and then it was up to them how much they wanted to do, how long they wanted to stay. All class clients were asked to avoid that corner of course. It helped a fair few people, but its entirely your choice of course.

Anything that startles us, that is unpredictable and outside our control can be scary, and that triggers our brains to work harder to spot these 'threats' earlier, which then makes us MORE jumpy and likely to react, MORE likely to notice things in the distance etc etc.

I have had issues with spiders and moths and had to work hard to get to a point where im generally ok... but a big spider suddenly running up my leg will still result in me spinning in circles making the most unhuman noises EVER!

It is really hard when the papers appear full of horrific stories, try to keep in mind these stories are news BECAUSE they're rare occurrences. If they were daily events, like people being hit by cars or killed by their own relatives, they wouldn't be news.

Jenasaurus · 20/01/2023 23:30

WiddlinDiddlin · 20/01/2023 22:09

If you do want to deal with your fear, some dog trainers who run puppy classes will let people sit in a corner for part of or all of a class.

I've done this when I ran classes, with the person in a corner by the second exit door, barricaded with tables on their sides so no dog could actually approach and they could step out any time they wanted.

We'd start them out with a puppy class, and all dogs on leads and then it was up to them how much they wanted to do, how long they wanted to stay. All class clients were asked to avoid that corner of course. It helped a fair few people, but its entirely your choice of course.

Anything that startles us, that is unpredictable and outside our control can be scary, and that triggers our brains to work harder to spot these 'threats' earlier, which then makes us MORE jumpy and likely to react, MORE likely to notice things in the distance etc etc.

I have had issues with spiders and moths and had to work hard to get to a point where im generally ok... but a big spider suddenly running up my leg will still result in me spinning in circles making the most unhuman noises EVER!

It is really hard when the papers appear full of horrific stories, try to keep in mind these stories are news BECAUSE they're rare occurrences. If they were daily events, like people being hit by cars or killed by their own relatives, they wouldn't be news.

The thing is I dog sit for my DS 2 whippets who I adore, and lived with my Ex and his GSD so am not scared of all dogs, just ones I don't know that jump up at me so not sure sitting in with the puppies would help.

WiddlinDiddlin · 21/01/2023 04:23

Increased exposure in a safe way desensitizes the brain, it wouldn't be just that and done though, thats an example of a starting point.

it'd be puppy class, then maybe an older dog class, then perhaps a class where dogs move more or an outdoor class or without a barrier (but dogs still on lead) etc etc, building up really gradually, keeping you feeling comfy and safe the whole time. The keys are to go slowly and start right back where you feel super comfortable and safe (that might not be puppy class, might be somewhere further up the scale, it's just an example).

Classes are helpful, particularly starting with indoor classes as the trainer can tell you what to expect, what the dogs will be doing, what might happen and so on, and of course no unexpected dogs can turn up. The moving to outdoor classes (which again should be in a secure place), you start to habituate to that 'this is ok and safe' feeling in a new environment. THe more you do that, the easier it gets.

It's not a magic wand though, from my own experience of phobias and ptsd and from working with scared animals, it takes time and the goal realistically should be to get you more relaxed and able to think rationally and calmly, rather than get you to ADORE all dogs no matter what, where, how etc!

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