Page 20 | Asked to move from relatives house

SheilaFentiman · 15/01/2023 21:48

StalkedByASpider · 15/01/2023 21:27

You have no idea of the circumstances and neither do I.

All we know is that the POA granted them permission to live in the property and that the OP has stated she has struggled with her mental health (and has implied that she was unable to work due to her mental health so presumably has been pretty ill).

If a person was financially dependent upon a deceased but they're not included in the Will, it's possible to contest it legally. Whether it's successful depends on the exact circumstances.

I'm not making any judgement on whether the OP deserves to make a claim or not, because we don't know the full facts. I'm simply passing on information about the law. If it's not warranted, her claim won't succeed.

Your tone is extremely judgemental considering the OP has provided very few details and we know precisely fuck all about the circumstances around which she was permitted to live there, her previous relationship with her grandmother or anything else.

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Well said, @StalkedByASpider

Those who are saying the POA acted improperly in depriving the grandmother of rent… well, possibly. But if a house is being rented out commercially, then it needs to be of minimum standards such as EPCs, fire safety etc. It seems like the POA was elderly too - appointing a rental agency etc may well have been beyond them.

As the POA has died, the OPG would not be able to raise any issues anyway, but I think that, given there was no certainty how long the GM would live when she went into the home, any spending required to bring it up to rental standard, appoint an agency etc could also be considered not in the best financial interest of the GM.

In any event, the actions of the POA are not OP’s responsibility and talk of collusion is really overblown.

saltinesandcoffeecups · 15/01/2023 21:53

StalkedByASpider · 15/01/2023 21:27

You have no idea of the circumstances and neither do I.

All we know is that the POA granted them permission to live in the property and that the OP has stated she has struggled with her mental health (and has implied that she was unable to work due to her mental health so presumably has been pretty ill).

If a person was financially dependent upon a deceased but they're not included in the Will, it's possible to contest it legally. Whether it's successful depends on the exact circumstances.

I'm not making any judgement on whether the OP deserves to make a claim or not, because we don't know the full facts. I'm simply passing on information about the law. If it's not warranted, her claim won't succeed.

Your tone is extremely judgemental considering the OP has provided very few details and we know precisely fuck all about the circumstances around which she was permitted to live there, her previous relationship with her grandmother or anything else.

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We know:

the OP lived rent free for 2 years
the Op claims to have MH problems
the POA agreed to the OP staying for a short time
the OP was not named as a beneficiary
the OP has not saved any money for 2 years
The OP thinks Granny is mean
The OP got a dog
What was the relationship between the OP and POA
The beneficiaries want to sell the house.

You’re right there is a lot we don’t know:

What did the tenancy agreement say
Was Granny aware that the OP was living there and not paying rent
Did the OP take good care of the house
What the OP expected to do long term

As for the OP now claiming she’s a dependent that’s going to be a legal stretch. If the agreement was made by the POA it’s probably not going to pass the sniff test with the courts. In other words if Granny was in the care home with Dementia it’s unlikely she knew what was going on. I don’t think a court would look kindly on a POA establishing a dependent situation while granny was incapacitated.

Yes, I’ve not hidden the fact that I’m judging the hell out of the OP. And I stand by those judgements. The whole situation was dodgy as hell and the OP is still looking to see what she can get out of granny’s estate.

SheilaFentiman · 15/01/2023 21:59

I read OP’s posts very differently to most of you. I think she is looking to understand her position, not to screw her relatives over but to understand the legals. She’s now going to Shelter for advice, which is the best plan.

Whether she “should” have saved or not, she hasn’t, or hasn’t been in a position to do so. She needs to live somewhere and should also be careful to go through whatever steps needed to get any benefits needed. If this needs to formally be eviction, she needs to understand the best way to do this.

redressgirl · 15/01/2023 22:06

yes you’ll have to leave really you should have saved enough money by now

StalkedByASpider · 15/01/2023 22:07

saltinesandcoffeecups · 15/01/2023 21:53

We know:

the OP lived rent free for 2 years
the Op claims to have MH problems
the POA agreed to the OP staying for a short time
the OP was not named as a beneficiary
the OP has not saved any money for 2 years
The OP thinks Granny is mean
The OP got a dog
What was the relationship between the OP and POA
The beneficiaries want to sell the house.

You’re right there is a lot we don’t know:

What did the tenancy agreement say
Was Granny aware that the OP was living there and not paying rent
Did the OP take good care of the house
What the OP expected to do long term

As for the OP now claiming she’s a dependent that’s going to be a legal stretch. If the agreement was made by the POA it’s probably not going to pass the sniff test with the courts. In other words if Granny was in the care home with Dementia it’s unlikely she knew what was going on. I don’t think a court would look kindly on a POA establishing a dependent situation while granny was incapacitated.

Yes, I’ve not hidden the fact that I’m judging the hell out of the OP. And I stand by those judgements. The whole situation was dodgy as hell and the OP is still looking to see what she can get out of granny’s estate.

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Fair enough. But we fundamentally disagree.

Presumably the POA was someone that the grandmother knew and trusted
The POA didn't ask the OP to leave before even though they originally agreed to a "short term" only so presume they were happy for her to remain
The OP says she's been paying all the bills
The OP hasn't said there are any complaints about the upkeep of the house so presumably she's been maintaining it
Dogs and animals are recommended because of the help they can provide to a person's mental health
The OP says she has poor mental health and has been unable to work - this could have been something really severe, we have no idea
The OP seems to be trying to get back on her feet - she describes now having a job and being able to work - that's not the actions of a grifter
OP says they won't let her stay even if she pays rent - which suggests this is about not wanting to lose her a familiar place that she sees as home rather than getting more freebies

The grandmother may have been aware that she was living there. Having someone act on your behalf doesn't mean that there's no understanding at all. Again, we just don't know.

The facts and questions that we don't know would fill this page.

If feels like everyone is pissed off because OP didn't have to pay rent for two years and they're outraged for some bizarre reason. OP says care home fees were taken care of, it doesn't sounds like the grandmother needed any more cash so she's not lost out in that way. And as @SheilaFentiman points out, renting the house commercially is a giant ball-ache. Maybe the grandmother/POA just wanted to have a caretaker in the property to keep it ticking over and the bills covered without all the hassle of a commercial let.

I don't understand people sometimes. An individual has said she has mental health problems that have stopped her from working and is now worried about losing her home. Fair enough to encourage her to move on, seek out alternatives, but this personal pile-on is absolutely awful. Especially when none of us have any clue about what's transpired.

StalkedByASpider · 15/01/2023 22:09

SheilaFentiman · 15/01/2023 21:59

I read OP’s posts very differently to most of you. I think she is looking to understand her position, not to screw her relatives over but to understand the legals. She’s now going to Shelter for advice, which is the best plan.

Whether she “should” have saved or not, she hasn’t, or hasn’t been in a position to do so. She needs to live somewhere and should also be careful to go through whatever steps needed to get any benefits needed. If this needs to formally be eviction, she needs to understand the best way to do this.

I agree with you entirely.

Toomuchtrouble4me · 15/01/2023 22:11

Lost123454 · 14/01/2023 09:39

You've been freeloading for two years

Time to move out and into the real world

She hasn’t been freeloading! She was offered to live in her grandmas house rent free but taking care of bills.

saltinesandcoffeecups · 15/01/2023 22:16

@StalkedByASpider Agree on the disagreement. I just can’t imagine the OP not painting herself in the best light possible here so the silence on many of the knowns and unknowns is very telling to me.

At the end of the day though I believe in the universe balancing out so if she took advantage of Granny, then she’s got to live with that. If she didn’t then she has a clear conscience and none of the posts calling her out will make a bit of difference as she will know she’s done nothing wrong.

FloraSpoke · 15/01/2023 22:17

WinterFoxes · 14/01/2023 10:45

OP, You've had enough people telling you how lucky you have been. Right now you have a problem and need to solve it. I'm guessing you haven't saved money - maybe because you haven;t earned much. i can quite see how a very low paid or PT job's income can go just on bills and living expenses.

What you could do is reframe what you have been doing as professional housesitting - keeping the property cared for and inhabited in exchange for rent-free accommodation, which is, in effect, what you have been doing. Ask the executors to give you a good reference for having done this. Make sure the house is immaculately clean and tidy and the garden in good nick and take some photos. Then apply to an agency and say you are looking for a long term professional housesitting contract as your current one is about to come to an end.

Good advice- you need to focus on the best way forward now OP and take positive steps to find new accommodation.

Flowersinspringgrowwild · 15/01/2023 22:20

So it's ok for the OP to live there rent free for much longer than a short time, but the GM (who we assume does not have mental capacity to consent, hence the activation of the POA) doesn't matter?! Or because GM was in a care home we stop giving a shit?

It is not up to the POA to allow OP to move in to make their life easier. They have to act in GM's best interests. Who knows what the GM could have used that income for.

Thank god for the OPG. It is no wonder so many people end up in court for financial abuse, thinking they can just do what they want with a POA. OP I realise you probably just took the kind offer of the POA. My annoyance is more directed at the people who are defending what the POA has done. I hope you get things sorted.

LakieLady · 15/01/2023 22:24

You need knowledgeable advice. I know you said you are going to the cab but ime Shelter are much better.

I'm inclined to agree, this is a complex situation and not all CABs will have a dedicated housing specialist. They had to cut a lot of housing advice jobs a few years ago when Legal Services Commission funding for housing was cut to zero.

You not only need advice regarding your rights (if any) with regard to the house you're in, but also if the council will have a duty to help you because of your MH issues.

SpaceshiptoMars · 15/01/2023 22:24

@OrangeBlankets If the POA was a relative of yours and an executor, they may have been a beneficiary of GMs will. Perhaps you should ask to look at the clause in GM's will about what would happen to the POA's share if they predeceased her.

SheilaFentiman · 15/01/2023 22:24

“OP I realise you probably just took the kind offer of the POA. My annoyance is more directed at the people who are defending what the POA has done. I hope you get things sorted.”

Ummm, not many people have talked about the POA himself. Do you mean me? I have outlined why a (probably elderly, since he has predeceased the GM) POA might not want to rent out the house and might very well have a case that keeping the house occupied and maintained so that the asset does not depreciate is sufficiently in the interest of the GM vs bringing it up to rental standards and dealing with tenants.

Siepie · 15/01/2023 22:30

HaroldeVwilliam · 15/01/2023 21:18

@BookishKitten ..I know.

Mn shouldn't allow it.

I've only seen rhe few on the page I posted on.

People don't understand old age! Being alone, having a fall, getting into trouble. The peace of mind ops presence was or if she had dementia she would have still been a huge support.

The grandmother was in a care home. The OP wasn't living with her.

SheilaFentiman · 15/01/2023 22:33

Actually, I don’t know what the situation would have been if OP had paid rent - the POA might have been obliged to have “landlord standards” for the property even though she was a relative. (I’m guessing the POA was the GM’s brother)

SheilaFentiman · 15/01/2023 22:34

SpaceshiptoMars · 15/01/2023 22:24

@OrangeBlankets If the POA was a relative of yours and an executor, they may have been a beneficiary of GMs will. Perhaps you should ask to look at the clause in GM's will about what would happen to the POA's share if they predeceased her.

I suspect it would go to his children (who are probably the OP’s aunts and uncles)

SheilaFentiman · 15/01/2023 22:39

saltinesandcoffeecups · 15/01/2023 22:16

@StalkedByASpider Agree on the disagreement. I just can’t imagine the OP not painting herself in the best light possible here so the silence on many of the knowns and unknowns is very telling to me.

At the end of the day though I believe in the universe balancing out so if she took advantage of Granny, then she’s got to live with that. If she didn’t then she has a clear conscience and none of the posts calling her out will make a bit of difference as she will know she’s done nothing wrong.

There have been 500 posts on this thread in about 36 hours. OP has posted 10 times, only two of which were today. I don’t think her silence is “telling” - there’s a barrage of repetitive criticism on here so I hope she has popped on, skimmed off useful advice and logged off to protect herself. Unsurprising, given everything she is going through with house worries etc.

LakieLady · 15/01/2023 22:41

C1N1C · 15/01/2023 20:48

I'm not reading 400 posts but based on what I have... surely a smart person would have used this time to accumulate some money for when this situation happens???

As you haven't bothered even to read the OP's posts, you won't be aware that she has MH issues and says that she has got a job "now", implying that she didn't have one before. It's not a giant leap to think these 2 things may be connected.

If the OP wasn't working, she would only have been getting a little over £300 a month, barely enough to pay the bills on the house and keep herself.

I suspect that she may not have been in a position to "accumulate" any money, and even if she was, her MH issues may well have meant that she was not in a position to make such rational decisions and plan ahead.

There seem to be an awful lot MNers who have little conception of how MH issues can make it very difficult to make the sort of wise choices that those of us who are blessed with good MH make without really thinking. There's a sizeable empathy vacuum on this thread.

Whadda · 15/01/2023 22:44

I think this may be one of the most entitled threads I’ve ever seen on here.

OP, living somewhere rent-free for two years is a massive privilege. It’s a shame that you don’t see it for the gift it was, rather than take umbrage now that the house is no longer available for you.

CPL593H · 15/01/2023 22:45

HaroldeVwilliam · 15/01/2023 21:00

Op this thread has moved on but I wanted to say how awful some people can be on here. Something awful goes on with money here, it's like a money obsessed pit!
Nothing else matters except money! Eg maybe you were amazing Company for your grandma and boosted her happiness beyond measure for the last year's of her life!
Etc etc

I don't think this had anything to do with the grandmother (who the OP appears not to have liked) and everything to do with a really dodgy action by the POA, who I think did deprive the grandmother of assetss.

That is done, but as I said earlier in the thread @OrangeBlankets needs to concentrate on finding a new home because she will not be able to stay there.

EL8888 · 15/01/2023 22:47

Whadda · 15/01/2023 22:44

I think this may be one of the most entitled threads I’ve ever seen on here.

OP, living somewhere rent-free for two years is a massive privilege. It’s a shame that you don’t see it for the gift it was, rather than take umbrage now that the house is no longer available for you.

@Whadda same. They’ve got my CF of this year so far. I would even go as far as to wonder if it’s a wind up or a reverse. Is anyone this entitled and thick skinned?!

LakieLady · 15/01/2023 22:51

HaroldeVwilliam · 15/01/2023 21:04

I honestly don't know anyone in their right minds would have some random lodger living with a vulnerable elderly person.

The OP is not "some random lodger", she's the late owner's granddaughter!

ChellyT · 15/01/2023 23:27

OrangeBlankets · 14/01/2023 09:32

I've been living in a relatives house for more than 2 years. When I moved in the relative was in a care home but the person who had POA for them agreed for me to move in and said it was ok for a short time and that I didn't have to pay rent.

Now the house owner died and so did the POA. The executors want me to move out.

I don't have anywhere to go, can they evict me?

So much to unpack here...

I'm curious to how long is a short time in your books? 2 years is well past a short time in my books.

Yes you need to make other arrangements for lodgings.

Yes YABU to think after two deaths that your arrangements to stay will be ok.

I'm assuming the executors want to move on, sell the property or even get a decent income from it but can not with you being there.

ChungusBoi · 15/01/2023 23:37

As someone who managed a relative’s property in this context, I see utility (and flexibility) in having a relative who isn’t formally a paying tenant living in the elderly person’s home whilst they are away, covering the bills, maintaining it, and making up the spare room for when I travel to see my elderly relative in her care home.

If someone needs their POA to act on their behalf, you should still try to accommodate the person’s wishes if reasonably practicable. Aunt was adamant she wanted to be in her own home when well enough to cope (with carers coming in). Aunt’s medical conditions meant short spells in hospital, longer spells of recovery in a care home, and then home until the next hospitalisation, so I had to keep her own home in good order whilst she was away for when she was ready to occupy it again. Letting her home on a standard tenancy would not have been flexible enough.

To let her house out would also have taken investment greater than aunt’s rapidly dwindling savings, so I would have had to raise the money somehow - equity release against her home? and it would have taken more time than I have available to bring it up to the standard of a professional let. She had 80 years worth of stuff to go into storage for a start! And old bathroom, kitchen, tatty furniture etc, that she refused to change in any way. So those of you saying that the POA should have just let it on a market rent - it’s not always practical or even cost effective.

Hopefully this paints a picture of what can be involved.

SheilaFentiman · 15/01/2023 23:45

Good post, ChungusBoi

My sibling and I will probably sell my mum’s house when she follows my dad into care, but it isn’t needed for care fees (owing to other finances) and if there was a chance thst a relative could keep the place going and give us more time to sort it out (and the occasional use of a spare room to visit them in the nearby care home), I would definitely think about it!