To tell you the NHS is a frightening failure for children?

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I suppose when we read headlines it's A&E waiting times and often focused on adults

But I'm here to give a personal account of how dangerous it is for children, something we haven't shone the light on as much as adult care and waiting times being horrible right now.

DD was born very prematurely and she had some awful breathing this morning, which then worsened into sucking in a lot at the rib cage (not that unusual for her but it seemed worse than usual). She couldn't stay awake much

I knew an ambulance would take a long time and needed the car, so I was going to drive her myself. I went to put her into her car seat and she went floppy, like a rag doll. Limp and floppy. I screamed and luckily H was there who phoned an ambulance

I explained calmly but seriously on the phone what was going on. The phone operator said 5 hour wait. I said please, she's gone floppy. Please help us. She said sorry, but 5 hour wait times. Can I take her myself?

I explained I could take her myself but I wouldn't be able to see if she was okay or not? I'd be driving. She said that was safer than waiting for an ambulance

I put the phone down and took her in, frightened, petrified for her life. I got there after 25 minutes and rushed to her. She was still not responding. She was triaged straight away. Her Sats were sitting at 69/70.

She is currently in PICU (intensive care) and I don't know when she will wake up. Nobody seems to be straight with me. I'm not getting a clear picture here. My H is on his way up now and hopefully they will tell me straight what this means for her now

The NHS is fucked.

There is no need for a debate, people are allowed to have differences of opinion on matters. You just seem to have difficulty accepting that I hold a different view from you. You seem determined to want to prove that your are RIGHT and I am WRONG, rather than just accepting there may be more than one way of looking at things.

Because that isn’t going to happen for a number of years. And difficult choices need to be made in the meantime.

@Cuppasoupmonster

Indeed. The next election is many months away.

There are difficult choices that need to be made in the here and now.

Go on, start that AIBU and see what everyone else says.

The NHS is not going to triage patients based on what mumsnet decides.

This is not in anyone's power here. What is though, is actual political change.

Exactly. And even if we get the new government… we don’t have the medical staff, we can’t just magic up 50,000 nurses out of nowhere. And is stealing medical staff from second/third world countries really a moral thing to do? We would have to spend years training them, then years building new facilities etc. We’re looking at 7 years minimum before the NHS is back to 2008 standards and that’s if we’re lucky.

@Lasttraintolondon

Of course. Not holding up much hope for the next election but I do hope I am wrong. I’ve never voted Tory.

If mumsnet was in charge of political change we would never have had a Tory government to start with.

My dad is 87. If he died tomorrow, I would be sad. But he’s lived a long life and death at that age is expected. I’d get over it.

If one of my children died, I would be inconsolable, I don’t know if I could go on. They haven’t lived their lives. They shouldn’t die before me.

If that makes me weird, so be it.

@Cuppasoupmonster

I agree. My mum and sister are both nurses but trained under labour whereby they had the generous bursary scheme. It all went a bit tits up for nurse recruitment when the Tories came in and relied on nurses from overseas.

I think a change of government is a good start but the problems run so deep now that I fear it can never be pulled back. In the meantime tough clinical decisions do need to be made in times of scarcity and crisis.

No one has said that at any point at all! In fact that exact point has been made and agreed with.

It's massively worrying and its not just the NHS. I had to phone the police for a road traffic accident a few months back and I was on hold before I even got through to an operator. Thank god it wasn't life or death! I was really surprised.

I hope your little girl is okay

I think a change of government is a good start but the problems run so deep now that I fear it can never be pulled back.

I fear this as well. It hasn’t just been lack of funds and mismanagement etc - our ‘needs’ as a society have rocketed in the last 30 years. Mainly due to an ageing population but also obesity, addiction, older parenthood and the avalanche of mental health issues.

I feel we’ve reached the point that our society can no longer provide the level of medical support needed, even if there was funding - you can’t make 10% (for instance) of the population train as nurses/doctors/healthcare workers, nor should our economy exist just to prop up the NHS while other resources suffer.

It’s incredibly worrying and the only way out I can see is:

1. A personal responsibility drive for the obese, addicted etc - rather than letting them carry on as they are and just prescribing pills
2. A level of privatisation (yep, I said the P word)
3. Giving healthcare workers a proper pay rise
4. Improving medical facilities which are between the GP and A&E - essentially out of hours. There should be walk-ins and we need more of them.

My son had a 50 minute seizure (in hospital thank God) in October, I watched his oxygen drop into the 50s and didn't believe he could come back from it. Aside from his enw epilepsy diagnosis he's a cheeky, energetic 5 yr old and after a week of hell and obviously with my ownental health entirely destroyed, he's doing amazing. I hope it's the same for you. X

@Cuppasoupmonster

I do agree and I think essentially that will happen but it will be a slow drip, drip. My husbands boss was prioritised for a liver transplant not too long ago (it was not an alcohol induced problem that he had).

I’ve worked in stat MH services for a while now and there is much more emphasis on personal “recovery”. Recovery essentially meaning empowering the individual to take greater control of their MH and to essentially have more responsibility in managing themselves.

We absolutely do need more out of hours services and i suspect a fee to see your GP might be introduced at some point, like Ireland perhaps.

In this case, this child should have been a no. 1 priority. However, I dont agree that 100% of the time children should be the no. 1 priority. What gives someone the right to say that a childs life is more important than that of an adult? It should be based on urgency, not age.

What gives someone the right to say that a childs life is more important than that of an adult?

Common decency? As I said before this type of judgement would be used in life threatening situations only.

@Scalottia

So two calls come in and they are both equally as urgent. Both categorised as cat 1. The problem is there’s only 1 ambulance available….

Who should the ambulance go too first? The floppy/unresponsive 2 year old or the 90 year in cardiac arrest?

Fucking hell I hate this attitude! EVERY life is important, regardless of age. Beginning of life, end of life, middle of life....none of us have the right to dictate which part of life is more important, which age should be saved over another.

Much more tragic indeed - my father dying would be much more tragic to me than your child dying would be (to me). Your child dying would be much more tragic for you than if it were my father. See where I am going with this?

Which is why we make objective judgements. A stranger would put the child before your dad, even if they didn’t know either of them. Because it would be the right thing to do.

Its all very well chanting ‘all lives matter’ but that sidesteps the fact we don’t have the resources to act that way. Hence OP’s appalling experience. So who would you choose to send the ambulance to - 90 year old in cardiac arrest or a floppy and unresponsive baby?

@Scalottia

I know it is an emotive subject and of course we all hold our own nearest and dearest close to our hearts. It is an ethical dilemma for sure, however we are in crisis times here and so it is interesting to hear of peoples views on this.

My own personal opinion on this theoretical but highly likely scenario is that if you have two category 1 calls and only 1 ambulance,
then of course the child should be prioritised over the person nearing the end of their life. Ultimately I think that is fair and decent.

Aaah yes, the right thing to do. In your opinion - which you are 100% allowed to have.

I would send the ambulance to the one who had the most chance of recovering with minimal future medical issues. This would be dependant on the general health of the patient to start with. Perhaps the 90 year old has less chance of surviving, perhaps the baby. It is not a nice decision to have to make. However I would never just choose the baby because it is a baby, nor would I choose the 90 year old because that person is a 90 year old.

@Scalottia

Sensible response. I should imagine that criteria would have them going to the child first in the majority of cases.

@Scalottia

But in emergencies they simply haven’t got time to start going through everybody’s clinical medical histories so whilst a sensible criteria in one respect, completely not logistical.

Aaah yes, the right thing to do. In your opinion

And probably 98% of the public’s, if you cared to start a poll.