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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To tell you the NHS is a frightening failure for children?

332 replies

redorbreak · 05/01/2023 20:19

I suppose when we read headlines it's A&E waiting times and often focused on adults

But I'm here to give a personal account of how dangerous it is for children, something we haven't shone the light on as much as adult care and waiting times being horrible right now.

DD was born very prematurely and she had some awful breathing this morning, which then worsened into sucking in a lot at the rib cage (not that unusual for her but it seemed worse than usual). She couldn't stay awake much

I knew an ambulance would take a long time and needed the car, so I was going to drive her myself. I went to put her into her car seat and she went floppy, like a rag doll. Limp and floppy. I screamed and luckily H was there who phoned an ambulance

I explained calmly but seriously on the phone what was going on. The phone operator said 5 hour wait. I said please, she's gone floppy. Please help us. She said sorry, but 5 hour wait times. Can I take her myself?

I explained I could take her myself but I wouldn't be able to see if she was okay or not? I'd be driving. She said that was safer than waiting for an ambulance

I put the phone down and took her in, frightened, petrified for her life. I got there after 25 minutes and rushed to her. She was still not responding. She was triaged straight away. Her Sats were sitting at 69/70.

She is currently in PICU (intensive care) and I don't know when she will wake up. Nobody seems to be straight with me. I'm not getting a clear picture here. My H is on his way up now and hopefully they will tell me straight what this means for her now

The NHS is fucked.

OP posts:
dollymixtured · 06/01/2023 00:01

Pleasepleasepleaseno · 05/01/2023 23:56

Are you elderly yourself @dollymixtured ? Sounds like perhaps the skewed thinking is yours.
The obvious reason why a baby should be chosen over a 90 year old is because the 90 year old has already lived 90 years and at best may have another 5 or so left. The baby is at the beginning of their life. I honestly cannot imagine how any sane person would think the elderly would take the priority there.
Also babies can go downhill fast, as a clinician who joined the thread earlier said themself.

😂😂😂 no I am not elderly! I have to confess though, I am not a child either.

CrunchyCarrot · 06/01/2023 00:03

I have yet to see anyone give a good reason why ‘of course’ babies and children should be prioritised

Surely because they have their whole lives ahead of them? I am, I suppose, fairly 'elderly' at nearly 67. I would in a heart beat give priority to a child's life over my own. I have had my life, and although it's still a bit too soon to go, at least I had 67 years. I don't have kids by the way so that's not somehow skewing my perception!

ImustLearn2Cook · 06/01/2023 00:09

@Kendodd I think you have missed the whole point of what I have written.

Just because there might be a more practical need for a younger person to receive an organ donation than an elderly person does not equate to the elderly person being less important than the younger person. These blanket statements or ideologies just don’t work in reality.

All people deserve to be treated humanely. All people deserve to have their basic needs met. All people are equally important and valuable. We are not all regarded as having equal importance or value by some people.

But one day you could be a 90 year old who is vulnerable being treated inhumanly by someone who thinks you have less value and importance because you are old. You probably won’t feel like you deserve being treated inhumanly or inconsequential or that it is somehow justified.

Decisions about medical treatment, who to treat are based on many factors.

dollymixtured · 06/01/2023 00:10

CrunchyCarrot · 06/01/2023 00:03

I have yet to see anyone give a good reason why ‘of course’ babies and children should be prioritised

Surely because they have their whole lives ahead of them? I am, I suppose, fairly 'elderly' at nearly 67. I would in a heart beat give priority to a child's life over my own. I have had my life, and although it's still a bit too soon to go, at least I had 67 years. I don't have kids by the way so that's not somehow skewing my perception!

I guess I don’t value lives in terms of numbers of years and find it incredibly reductive that others seem to do so. I don’t think this thread is a place to get into the debate but I was intrigued that some people seem to think it’s so clear cut. I suppose it’s the start of the type of thinking that leads down the eugenics line, the idea that some lives are more valuable than others. Not something I have ever subscribed to but it seems a lot of people are happy to go down that route.

ItsACrater · 06/01/2023 00:12

Hope baby is ok baby. RSV is separate to a cold. It’s a serious respiratory virus and can cause particular problems like you’ve described. Especially for babies born early and poorly. In fact at one point I’m sure there was a vaccine against RSV.

My eldest DD ended up with RSV and blue lighted a couple of times to hospital.

LemonSwan · 06/01/2023 00:13

I am so sorry this happened OP. I myself had a brue event with my boy earlier this year. No ambulances available as have been cut. I didn’t actually know that at the time but spur of the moment I just knew I couldn’t wait even 5 minutes so went myself - let alone the 30 mins it would have taken for ambulance at best to get here. He wouldn’t have made it if I had waited. We were lucky.

I really hope she recovers fully and quickly. I will be thinking of you all.

You might go into a kind of shock at some point. You will be running on adrenaline. Please look after yourself. Eat. Drink. Cry. Cry some more. You have been through a lot even if you don’t realise that in this moment. It didn’t fully hit me until a few weeks later. 💐

ImustLearn2Cook · 06/01/2023 00:14

I have yet to see anyone give a good reason why ‘of course’ babies and children should be prioritised

Babies and young children can be prioritised simply because of the fact that their condition can deteriorate much quicker than if they were older. So, therefore (on a practical level) will need to be attended to more promptly. Also, some illnesses that wouldn’t be fatal to most adults can be fatal to babies.

ItsACrater · 06/01/2023 00:14

Good face sheer here on on RSV

CDC fact sheet on RSV

CrunchyCarrot · 06/01/2023 00:16

dollymixtured · 06/01/2023 00:10

I guess I don’t value lives in terms of numbers of years and find it incredibly reductive that others seem to do so. I don’t think this thread is a place to get into the debate but I was intrigued that some people seem to think it’s so clear cut. I suppose it’s the start of the type of thinking that leads down the eugenics line, the idea that some lives are more valuable than others. Not something I have ever subscribed to but it seems a lot of people are happy to go down that route.

I think it's a really interesting topic, but yes, I agree this thread isn't the right place for it. :)

dollymixtured · 06/01/2023 00:17

ImustLearn2Cook · 06/01/2023 00:14

I have yet to see anyone give a good reason why ‘of course’ babies and children should be prioritised

Babies and young children can be prioritised simply because of the fact that their condition can deteriorate much quicker than if they were older. So, therefore (on a practical level) will need to be attended to more promptly. Also, some illnesses that wouldn’t be fatal to most adults can be fatal to babies.

That’s a clinical argument that makes total sense but that doesn’t seem to be what a lot of posters are referring to.

ItsACrater · 06/01/2023 00:18

Sorry here us the drug although if your daughter has RSV then possibly no need now. Perhaps this will help others whose children are at risk of RSV complications

palivizumab

EYProvider · 06/01/2023 00:20

Kendodd · 05/01/2023 23:24

Sorry but how is being 'full to bursting' (don't agree btw) relevant? As long as public services keep pace, numbers shouldn't be a problem. There are other, more densely populated areas of the world. We have made a political choice in the UK to have low provision.

It says right there, we do not have the infrastructure to cope with it. Isn’t that the same thing as public services not being able to keep pace, or do you have problems with comprehension?

Untitledsquatboulder · 06/01/2023 00:24

Hope your dd is doing better OP. Not being able to get an ambulance must have been terrifying but its hard to reconcile your account of your dd's treatment since you arrived at the hospital with your statement that the nhs is a frightening failure for children.

bluetongue · 06/01/2023 00:47

Kendodd · 05/01/2023 23:05

Perhaps you missed my post where I said if I had to choose between my own 85 year old mother and my 11 year old daughter, absolutely no doubt who I'd choose. In fact if I had to choose between my own 85 year old mother and someone elses 11 year old, I'd like to think I'd still choose the 11 year old.

Same. I’m not even a parent but still think babies and children should take higher priority.

WeNeedMoreFairyLights · 06/01/2023 01:03

@dollymixtured maybe read the room?
The OPs baby is in intensive care on a ventilator. Drop it. This thread is to support the OP however she wants to vent.

MyOtherCarIsAPorsche · 06/01/2023 01:05

I was saying on a different thread this evening how scary this situation is. I feel like the NHS is a scary lottery for everyone - I have a very frail mother on a fast track protocol, husband who has had major heart surgery recently, grandchildren with significant needs.

My grandson is just turned two years. He was premature because mum had covid at 30 wks and was quite ill. She was sent home from hospital on a Sunday (she was convinced she was in labour - two previous pregnancies) she felt the hospital wanted rid of her (she was treated in a zipped up bubble area) because of her covid status.

She rang me that evening and said she felt as though she was 'holding the head back', and she was involuntarily pushing at the end of contractions.

She rang her midwife at 8am, who saw her at 9.30am. Midwife said it would be quicker to go straight to maternity in a car than by ambulance, which she did (I drove, no time to inform anyone at that point). We arrived at 11am due to horrendous traffic. We sat outside triage for half an hour. She was examined and taken to delivery immediately. It was too late to give her steroids for the baby's lungs. She gave birth literally being wheeled into the delivery room. She was 32 wks. We suspect that she had been fully dilated for a while.

Baby was in NICU for almost a month and discharged.

He has health issues which we now realise have been present since birth. He cried constantly, any virus would send him to hospital. He thrashed about during most nights. Eventually realised this thrashing was seizures which started to occur during the day as well. This time of year he is in and out of hospital as viruses make his seizures more frequent. His development is about a year behind what is expected. His behaviour is 'off the chart' - my daughter feels isolated as she no longer wants to take him out anywhere. I even have to have him for her in order that she can take her other two children food shopping.

He has been under investigation for just over a year. (She waited 9 months to see a consultant.). In that time he's had two EEG which were normal. No other tests apart from finger prick tests for blood sugar (usually done by ambulance crew).

We were told he's waiting for glucose monitoring and MMR - this was October last year.

My husband cannot tolerate his presence due to his behaviour which is a huge additional strain on the whole family.

There is something significantly wrong with him which remains mysterious.

We feel that children do not appear to be any sort of priority (unless that's just our family). My daughter's other son (3yrs) is non verbal and we are waiting for speech and language to contact us. Her daughter (6 yrs) has been waiting two years for an initial appointment with regards to autism. All three children have needs which remain unmet. She feels like a failure and this week she has said she is drowning and feels like a failure as a mother. She is depressed. She is not unsupported - as a minimum, I spend four days with her/her children each week. And she still feels like this. I have been with her all this week as she stated she can't face waking up anymore. Her son was in hospital all day Tuesday after a prolonged fit. She was told it would be quicker to take him to hospital by car which she did. Then doctors criticised her for taking him 'post ictal' as he could've had further seizures. This made her break down and cry.

I have booked to see a paediatrician privately but because there is such a huge demand at the moment, that appointment is in February. An ambulance crew told her (on a different admission) that the government want to run the NHS down in order for more people to resort to paying privately for care, which in turn creates a demand for more private hospitals. I know quite a few people having procedures privately at this time (hysterectomy, hip, shoulder, knee, hernia).

I completely agree OP the NHS is a frightening failure.

When my husband had his arortic dissection type A diagnosed, the ambulance called to transfer him to a specialist heart centre refused to take him because they weren't trained to use a piece of equipment he required (fluid which was maintaining his blood pressure). That was my most scary moment.

The support I have had on here though has kept me going. It has been tremendous just to know that there are many out there in the ether to hold your hand.

I will virtually hold your hand throughout and wish your baby a speedy recovery.

PrayingandHoping · 06/01/2023 05:42

ItsACrater · 06/01/2023 00:18

Sorry here us the drug although if your daughter has RSV then possibly no need now. Perhaps this will help others whose children are at risk of RSV complications

palivizumab

My daughter had this after having rsv. Uk. It's not a normal vaccine, in that it only protects for around a month so is given monthly once a month in the winter months

It is also insanely expensive. So they give it to those children clinically most at risk and under 2 years of age. It is difficult to qualify for.

It is not available privately

LouLou198 · 06/01/2023 05:46

Reading your post has made me teary.
We had a similar experience with our 3 day old dd. She was blue and floppy also. Most traumatic experience of my life. Luckily this was 12 years ago when ambulances arrived in minutes of an emergency.
I thought babies would be a priority. There was a thread on here a couple of weeks back where the op was with an elderly relative who had fallen who was waiting all night for an ambulance. They couldn't transport her themselves as she was upstairs and they couldn't move. It's such a mess. I really hope your dd is okay Flowers

Jazz12 · 06/01/2023 08:09

Hope your daughter gets better soon. I can’t believe you have no friends, neighbours, other parents absolutely no one who can help with your son!

Cluelessat33 · 06/01/2023 09:00

I suspect the government are praising Harry and his book. Distraction from the actual real issues for a few days. Then we might have some snow, and that will turn the media's attention for a few more. All the while our MPs are sat on their arses at home doing f all. If you're angry about this, please contact your MP. They will probably do nothing, but some of the better ones may well sit up and listen at how frightened and angry the population is. And a frightened and angry populace is never good for winning votes.

Cuppasoupmonster · 06/01/2023 09:06

dollymixtured · 06/01/2023 00:10

I guess I don’t value lives in terms of numbers of years and find it incredibly reductive that others seem to do so. I don’t think this thread is a place to get into the debate but I was intrigued that some people seem to think it’s so clear cut. I suppose it’s the start of the type of thinking that leads down the eugenics line, the idea that some lives are more valuable than others. Not something I have ever subscribed to but it seems a lot of people are happy to go down that route.

For gods sake. If there was plentiful resources and people were saying ‘oh just leave the old people to die, they’re not long for this world anyway’ then yes that would be eugenics because it’s ideological and not operational. But that’s not what we’re saying - we’re saying as resources are at breaking point, children should be prioritised over the elderly as they haven’t had their lives yet. It’s just common sense, and something the vast majority of people would agree with if presented with a seriously ill toddler and a seriously ill 90 year old. It’s all very well being fluffy and Disney and ‘oh I don’t see people in terms of numbers’ when you don’t have to make such decisions.

Cuppasoupmonster · 06/01/2023 09:08

CrunchyCarrot · 06/01/2023 00:16

I think it's a really interesting topic, but yes, I agree this thread isn't the right place for it. :)

Actually I think it is. OP started the thread for support but also the highlight the horrors that children are suffering because of the NHS crisis.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to talk about prioritising children on here.

Cuppasoupmonster · 06/01/2023 09:15

dollymixtured · 05/01/2023 23:42

Let’s hope you are never in charge of any policy decisions. The idea that children and babies are ‘higher value’ than the elderly is just ghastly.

Of course they’re higher value! Lord Sumption made some eloquent points (as an elderly person) about this during the covid lockdowns. Which might be worth a read but I won’t clog this page up with links.

Small children haven’t yet lived a life. They deserve to be given the opportunity more than somebody who has. That doesn’t mean a toddler with a broken toe should be prioritised over a very critically ill 80 year old, I’m talking about where there are so little resources that tactical decisions need to be made in the most extreme cases.

Goosefatroasts · 06/01/2023 09:17

@IneedanewTV

You are wrong. Even my mother would agree and she’s only in her 60s right now and not her 90s. In a perfect world everyone would be treated, but this is not a perfect word far from it. It’s common sense really, you prioritise children and babies. I also didn’t believe that children should have been sacrificed at that time and they are now paying the price for that but that’s another thread entirely.

OP I hope there has been some improvement today with your little one 💐.

To tell you the NHS is a frightening failure for children?
Kendodd · 06/01/2023 09:19

EYProvider · 06/01/2023 00:20

It says right there, we do not have the infrastructure to cope with it. Isn’t that the same thing as public services not being able to keep pace, or do you have problems with comprehension?

And can you not read? There is absolutely no reason why we couldn't build the infrastructure/public services to keep pace. It was a political choice not to.

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