To think this charity deserve prosecution for being so bloody stupid?

[Fucklechuck]

Just seen this in the news and went down a rabbit hole reading the whole story plus comments on their FB.

They took a bunch of young kids on a frozen lake (apparently without parental consent) and tried to justify it as a safety lesson despite clearly having no understanding themselves of the actual dangers. For example they're claiming the entire lake was frozen over with 2ft thick ice - no, it definitely wasn't, not in the south west of the UK, it's just not that cold in this country even in the recent cold snap. That's just impossible.

Their comments on their FB page are shockingly blasé and they've even been liking other people's comments saying that vaccines are a bigger danger to children than this was

Just can't believe anyone would be so stupid less than a week after the tragedy in Solihull and then to take to social media calling it a knee jerk overreaction to suspend their license until an investigation is complete shows a total lack of regard for the most basic H&S or risk assessment processes. I actually hope their registration to look after children is revoked by whoever has such powers!

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet but I'd agree. The Gloucester/Sharpness canal froze to about 2 inches thick in an area that's roughly 5ft deep at the moment. I know smaller bodies of water freeze quicker but I struggle to see that a lake of that size/depth so close to here froze to that degree.

Nowhere have they explained how they determined the ice to be 2 foot thick. The only way (available to most people - i'm sure there are specialist ultrasonic/radar instruments available for those building ice roads in the arctic) is to bore a hole in it and measure - and proper frozen solid safe ice is hard, you're not poking a stick through it - you'd need something like the attached picture, which I severely doubt they would have had to hand for that once in a decade event of there being enough ice to use it + it being a spur of the moment thing. Oh and the general consensus seems to be that if the ice is over 12" thick you'd need a powered auger not a hand one.
I'm sure you could get away with the the old dewalt battery drill and the 1m long 30mm sds bit but i doubt they had that out with them too.

Also just measuring in one spot isn't going to be smart either - the spot with still water and that is in permanent shade vs the sunny bit that has the the river that flows through the lake running across it will very likely give very different results.

Fucking up big time is one thing but doubling and then trippling down on it rather than admitting that in hindsight it may not have been the most appropriate activity to undertake and that they are reviewing what happened and their procedures and policies to ensure they continue to provide safe educational and fulfilling experiences for all etc etc blah blah blah, would have been the mature and sensible thing to do.

Their made up post even risk assessment is a joke too - falling through ice into water in sub zero temperatures then having to rescue however many people from the water, then walk the wet, cold/hypothermic, injured?, distressed/panicked group back to a hut does not result in "Minor injuries or discomfort, no medical treatment or measurable physical effects"
The time taken to get everyone out of the water and back onto the 'safe' ice could be extensive - not just a 5 minute brisk walk - hypothermia would occur within minutes in icy water.

I hope the HSE have a look at them/throw the book at them (him).

He’s actually shared this onto his own personal Facebook page - pretty apt if you ask me.

Why anyone would allow this man around their children at all baffles me. He’s a covid-denier, anti-vax, climate change denier. He’s anti-contraception (including condoms), he’s pro-illegal drug use, he believes in “the universe” instead of appropriate health and safety, has shared a video of three people cutting down a tree with no safety equipment and it falling unexpectedly lifting one person into the air and injuring them… he’s also posted things about neurodiverse people that clearly show he shouldn’t be working with neurodiverse children (for example “your triggers are your responsibility, it isn’t the world’s obligation to tiptoe around you”.

I wouldn’t let him within a mile of my children, let alone actually pay him money to safeguard them.

@Chickenly his facebook page is a shocker. Surprised he has time to do any outdoorsy stuff the amount he posts. He's an even bigger bellend than first thought.
He should not be allowed anywhere near children.

That is awful.

The first thing you see on his Facebook page is an image of Queen Elizabeth with the word 'parasite' obliterating her eyes and 'no self serving bastards' underneath.

It's fine to be anti royalty but he's chosen to tl publicise his hatred for an elderly woman who worked hard throughout her life until her recent death. There is great public respect for her and sadness about her passing. I personally don't know anyone else in a position of responsibility who is prepared to be so publicly provocative and offensive.

This kind of unprofessional vitriol seems consistent with his obstinate attitude when accused of putting children at risk.

I'm not sure I would want to save anything that had him at the helm, really.

I've just seen this picture on his Facebook page. What safeguarding policies would those be exactly....

Bloody hell 😳

Oh my god, that picture!

It's so bloody easy to declare yourself a "trainer" or "educator" and people will just nod along with no critical faculties engaged. I've seen it time and time again in many fields.

I used to know a certain type of parent who thought those sort of activities were like a badge of honour.

The amount of children I used to see put in dangerous situations just because it made the parents feel that they were a cut above because they were so free and different used to make. my blood boil.

It’s all about the parents, not the children.

So are they OFSTED registered? Surely they must be if they run education classes for children?

This is an interesting question.
It isn't early years so Ofsted will not be interested as it isn't childcare provision for the under 8's.
It isn't a school so Ofsted will not be interested as it isn't a registered educational setting - but should it be? I thought home edders are totally free of official interventions, fair enough, but groups run for home edders not by home edders, I don't know.

@TightFistedWozerk indeed! According to their website they get funding from the DfE among many other sources, to deliver educational programmes for children who "aren't thriving in education" and to run holiday clubs www.therewildproject.com/qualification-course

I'm surprised if they aren't required to be OFSTED registered but they don't seem to be...

The more I look into this the worse it gets actually. How the heck have they managed to get funding from the Department for Education to run alternative provision and holiday clubs for vulnerable children? What level of due diligence has been done by some of the funders?

I’m a former teacher. I don’t know if they’re required to be Ofsted registered but I wouldn’t ever recommend using that as any measure of safety and competence. In fact, I think Ofsted are entirely useless. I worked in a “good” rated school where there’s no amount of money in the world that would convince me to send my child there. Ofsted do not monitor anything that any rational human being cares about when deciding who can safeguard their child. Getting DfE funding doesn’t surprise me either - bunch of incompetent nutters funding other incompetent nutters isn’t that odd. Perhaps it would be worth firing off an email to point it out though - this “charity” clearly is a cover up for this man’s dangerous vanity project. Is he even registered for tax etc?

It would be a pity if this hooliganish approach to alternative education gives a bad name to the many lovely groups that are currently available to home educating families. I get can't over how close that child is to the teeth of the saw but I suppose I'm just not cool enough to get it.

I've never looked at his personal Facebook. Bloody Nora!

I had revised my opinion of him, I've seen them out and about and the kids seem very switched on and happy. But having seen that I have totally rethunk him.

That's just bonkers.

I agree. People are against home education enough without idiots like this tarnishing it.

Unfortunately, these sort of groups do ruin it for the rest of us (I HE’d for years and there were always these sort of groups that gave us all a bad name).

They aren't. The uprights of the saw horse are between the child lying on the log and the saw.

I'm not saying whether this activity is safe or not for children. but I have frequently been the person sitting on the log whilst people use a double sided saw and the chances of the saw leaping out of the wood, over the uprights and into the child are slim to none. I've even done it without a saw horse protecting me.

But I don't condone this charity/organisations attitude to safety generally so I am not defending them to be clear. I just this this specific activity is less risky than it might look in the photo, but that said I don't trust these people near a sharp blade never mind with children and sharp blades given their blasé attitude!!

My DH agrees with you! He thinks that picture looks worse than the actual level of risk involved but it's still inappropriate with no safety gear, vulnerable/ND children who don't belong to you and potentially unpredictable behaviour from them. The kind of thing you might do with your own kids but not other people's. My response was that I get it but still would not be happy to walk out into the back garden and find him copying it. There has to be a strap or something that would do the same job.

Who insures them and do they actually know what they do and how they are run, I suspect not. These projects really beneficial when run correctly. We have similar in our community but they do attract people with agendas for lifestyle choices that are not always mainstream and they can quickly fall into a victim complex if criticism comes there way. Self awareness is often lacking in some of our leaders too, but it is getting a balance between the obvious enthusiasm they have and them becoming fanatical and evangelical and assuming basic protocols don't apply to them.
The balance is not right here from what we are seeing.

A strap could be anchored into a ground weight and work the same I think?

And I totally agree about the kids, what I am willing to do and what is suitable to do for specific groups of children is very different and I don't trust this groups decision making process to have assessed the risk correctly

I have looked at the other stuff they offer at this place, it looks great, coppercraft, skinning and tanning, connecting people with nature and the landscape, a course on building tinyhouses, a school edible garden project, meaningful activities for adults with carers; I think the ice thing they totally miscalculated and made a massive misstep, so to speak.
I can see why the FC want to throw out the bathwater but it would be a shame to throw out the baby, too (Mixing my metaphors madly, here)

None of that is relevant. They don't carry out adequate risk assessments and have doubled down since, demonstrating that they are unprofessional and incompetent.

They were very very lucky that a child didn't end up in hospital that day or worse. That's the only reason it didn't happen - luck.

Vulnerable children and adults deserve better.