Page 37 | There is no god

OldKingCole · 2023-01-02T19:02:17+00:00

Inspired by another thread … I was surprised by the level of atheism professed … as I always though I was in a tiny, tiny minority. would be interested to see the MN response. IABU - there is a god IANBU - there is no god

CrimsonPostBox · 14/01/2023 19:54

pointythings · 14/01/2023 18:37

The Cosmological Argument from Contingency:
Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.
2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.
3. The universe exists.
4. Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence (from 1, 3).
5. Therefore, the explanation of the universe’s existence is God (from 2, 4).

This is a circular argument. Point two is just a statement supported by no evidence; if the universe must have an explanation, that explanation is not necessarily God. You just want it to be.

Your other arguments are variations of the first: circular and therefore meaningless unless you have already chosen to make the leap of faith and believe.

If you consider the definition of God - as the source, the origin, the creator, the Alpha and Omega - then the explanation, by definition, has to be God. If the explanation is something other than God, then that very thing must have another explanation, and eventually it has to be reducible to God.

pointythings · 14/01/2023 19:57

@CrimsonPostBox not necessarily. It's just something you like to call God. @Hawkins001 's suggestion that it's an alien, or @OMG12 's suggestion that it is the infinity of space are both just as plausible as explanations. That's the difference between believers and non-believers: believers think they know. Most non-believers are happy to admit that they don't, and can't.

Parker231 · 14/01/2023 19:58

CrimsonPostBox · 14/01/2023 19:54

If you consider the definition of God - as the source, the origin, the creator, the Alpha and Omega - then the explanation, by definition, has to be God. If the explanation is something other than God, then that very thing must have another explanation, and eventually it has to be reducible to God.

Show quote history

And if you don’t believe that there is a god to create anything?

CrimsonPostBox · 14/01/2023 20:01

pointythings · 14/01/2023 19:54

@CrimsonPostBox your arguments are still all circular and still all meaningless, as they are all predicated on the leap of faith. They're just a pretty expansion of the God of the Gaps fallacy.

These aren't my arguments. They were formulated Aristotle, Leibniz, Kant, Socrates and Descartes and they are logically sound. Most of the arguments against God's existence propounded here are from Hitchens and Dawkins who are not philosophers.

CrimsonPostBox · 14/01/2023 20:05

(I'll concede that Dawkins is a good biologist, but scientists are limited to explaining the how not the why. His book draws on arguments which no serious philosophers actually take seriously. That's why he refuses to debate philosophers and limits himself to dialoguing with faith leaders)

CrimsonPostBox · 14/01/2023 20:08

And from a purely rational perspective, it takes a lot more faith to believe that there is no Prime Mover. In light of the 5 main philosophical arguments for God's existence, it is simply more likely that he does exist.

pointythings · 14/01/2023 20:08

Philosophers always start from a premise. That premise can easily be false. And I don't know why you lend more credence to philosophers than you do to physicists - some of whom are believers, while others are not. It's still a matter of belief and nothing more. Logic is not evidence, and there is no scientific methodology that can prove or disprove the existence of God. I'm content not to know one way or another.

pointythings · 14/01/2023 20:10

CrimsonPostBox · 14/01/2023 20:08

And from a purely rational perspective, it takes a lot more faith to believe that there is no Prime Mover. In light of the 5 main philosophical arguments for God's existence, it is simply more likely that he does exist.

I never said my non-belief in a God isn't a matter of faith. It is. But so is your belief in the existence of a God. The difference is that I'm prepared to admit it.

CrimsonPostBox · 14/01/2023 20:18

ShodanLives · 14/01/2023 18:31

I have had to come to the conclusion that it is spiritual blindness, that God reveals himself to those whlm he chooses and blinds others

Why?

Or perhaps rather that we've all blinded ourselves, but in his mercy he chooses to open the eyes of some.

CrimsonPostBox · 14/01/2023 20:21

pointythings · 14/01/2023 20:10

I never said my non-belief in a God isn't a matter of faith. It is. But so is your belief in the existence of a God. The difference is that I'm prepared to admit it.

Show quote history

From a Christian perspective, faith is not something that is "blind". It is choosing to put your trust in something once the evidence has been presented to you. That is why Christian belief all hangs on the Apostolic word - that is, the accounts of thosr who were first-hand eye-witnesses of Jesus and all he did. Without the Gospel accounts - the eyewitness accounts - our faith is unsubstantiated.

walkinthewoodstoday · 14/01/2023 20:22

I don't know if I believe in a deity or if Jesus was holy, but I do believe that he existed and was a 'disrupter' in a good way creating new, important values. He was certainly radical. So I believe he existed but not necessarily the miracles etc.

MyCreation · 14/01/2023 20:23

I’m an atheist. The idea of a god is just totally weird to me

CrimsonPostBox · 14/01/2023 20:25

1 John 1.1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life."

Moonmelodies · 14/01/2023 20:32

CrimsonPostBox · 14/01/2023 20:25

1 John 1.1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life."

Many people would consider this meaningless gibberish.

Hawkins001 · 14/01/2023 20:38

What if humans were created as a scientific experiment like when humans do genetic engineering, by other advanced beings but we consider them as god's ?

OMG12 · 14/01/2023 20:39

poetryandwine · 14/01/2023 19:32

My views are complicated but yours are beautiful, @OMG12

You might be interested in looking into Neoplatonism

ShodanLives · 14/01/2023 20:42

CrimsonPostBox · 14/01/2023 20:21

From a Christian perspective, faith is not something that is "blind". It is choosing to put your trust in something once the evidence has been presented to you. That is why Christian belief all hangs on the Apostolic word - that is, the accounts of thosr who were first-hand eye-witnesses of Jesus and all he did. Without the Gospel accounts - the eyewitness accounts - our faith is unsubstantiated.

Show quote history

Buy why?

OMG12 · 14/01/2023 20:47

Hawkins001 · 14/01/2023 20:38

What if humans were created as a scientific experiment like when humans do genetic engineering, by other advanced beings but we consider them as god's ?

This would feed into the concept of God creating the universe in order that he can experience himself - quite a widely held belief between religions.

I guess the issue with scientist gods would be their changing nature over time. This would appear to be a change driven from the perspective of mankind rather than from the gods.

if gods exist it’s just as likely we brought them into being and our lack of belief is causing them to die. We’re no longer feeding them the golden apples.

pointythings · 14/01/2023 22:18

@OMG12 that's a very Terry Pratchett way of viewing gods and makes a lot of sense. Man does after all make God in his own image.

ImnotanumberIAMAFREEMAN · 14/01/2023 23:36

Well 10/10 for shit stirring! @OldKingCole 👏Hope you're proud of yourself.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/01/2023 23:58

but scientists are limited to explaining the how not the why

Some of the 'why' questions asked by religious people and philosophers aren't necessary.

OMG12 · 15/01/2023 05:11

ErrolTheDragon · 14/01/2023 23:58

but scientists are limited to explaining the how not the why

Some of the 'why' questions asked by religious people and philosophers aren't necessary.

What sort of unnecessary questions questions are you thinking of? And why aren’t they necessary?

OMG12 · 15/01/2023 05:18

pointythings · 14/01/2023 22:18

@OMG12 that's a very Terry Pratchett way of viewing gods and makes a lot of sense. Man does after all make God in his own image.

People just don’t explore the concept of gods enough, They often just reject the whole concept out of hand often due to some kind of cross phobia or pot understanding. Or whole heartedly and often unquestionably embrace a pre packaged belief system. They’re both right to an extent. And probably 100% correct in their universe.

one of the best ways to explore these concepts is through poetry and fiction IME. Read Blake with as much reverence as the bible.

OMG12 · 15/01/2023 05:29

CrimsonPostBox · 14/01/2023 19:54

If you consider the definition of God - as the source, the origin, the creator, the Alpha and Omega - then the explanation, by definition, has to be God. If the explanation is something other than God, then that very thing must have another explanation, and eventually it has to be reducible to God.

Show quote history

Exactly this, it’s the definition of God that lies at the crux of this, people are too bound up with the bearded bloke on a cloud. It e we plus be helpful if people actually read the Bible

OMG12 · 15/01/2023 05:37

*it would be helpful if people read the Bible rather