Page 20 | There is no god

OldKingCole · 2023-01-02T19:02:17+00:00

Inspired by another thread … I was surprised by the level of atheism professed … as I always though I was in a tiny, tiny minority. would be interested to see the MN response. IABU - there is a god IANBU - there is no god

Seasonofthewitch83 · 03/01/2023 14:55

Do I believe in a bloke in the clouds? No.

Do I believe in higher powers? Yes. But there isnt a bloke with a beard who punishes you because you masturbate.

zingally · 03/01/2023 14:55

As Stephen Fry said, if there's a god, explain bone cancer in children?

I'm an atheist through and through. Religions provide some nice stories, and if they bring people comfort, then that's great. But it's not for me.

Parker231 · 03/01/2023 14:57

PrincessConstance · 03/01/2023 14:47

You seem to be mightly angry about a concept that doesn't exist. (GOD).

“. . . .We are familiar with the statement in the Psalms; “The fool has said in his
heart, there is no God” (Psalm 14:1; 53:1). In order for the fool to say “God,” he
had to have a concept of God in his mind. To start out to deny God is a kind of
implication that God exists.”2 This Truth about man, points to the
Ontological approach.

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Not angry for me as I got married the way we wanted but angry for those who may want to get married in a church and can’t.

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 15:02

Onnabugeisha · 03/01/2023 14:24

Every Ancient civilisation had marriage.
Egyptians, Chinese, Sumerian, Indus, Celts, Romans, Greeks, Toltec, Maya, Inca, Benin, etc

You can’t seriously be saying that no one married or had ever heard of marriage until they’d been converted to Judaism, Christianity or Islam?

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But why is a God almost always central to all those different cultural institutions of marriage you listed?

Is it because marriage is a contract and comes under law (god traditionally oversaw law).

Adelant · 03/01/2023 15:02

zingally · 03/01/2023 14:55

As Stephen Fry said, if there's a god, explain bone cancer in children?

I'm an atheist through and through. Religions provide some nice stories, and if they bring people comfort, then that's great. But it's not for me.

At what age does it become acceptable to get bone cancer? 16? 18? 21?

Which religion promises life on earth that is free from pain?

Livetoplay · 03/01/2023 15:03

@Inspecto are you serious? Did you not study any RE, philosophy or ethics of any kind in school? A quick Google search will help you with your enquiry about how the concept of ‘marriage’ pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years.
But I suppose if you believe in an omniscient god who made everything that’s irrelevant .

Avalavalanche · 03/01/2023 15:10

PrincessConstance · 03/01/2023 14:47

You seem to be mightly angry about a concept that doesn't exist. (GOD).

“. . . .We are familiar with the statement in the Psalms; “The fool has said in his
heart, there is no God” (Psalm 14:1; 53:1). In order for the fool to say “God,” he
had to have a concept of God in his mind. To start out to deny God is a kind of
implication that God exists.”2 This Truth about man, points to the
Ontological approach.

Show quote history

Yeah people do occasionally get angry when you call them fools.

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 15:15

Parker231 · 03/01/2023 14:57

Not angry for me as I got married the way we wanted but angry for those who may want to get married in a church and can’t.

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But that is a church’s prerogative. Why are you angry if the church defends itself?

The faith is allowed to defend itself. In times like now, the faith must defend itself.

There are covenants between god and people. Like with any contract, breaking a covenant has consequences. Why not?

I have gathered that you like the take without the give, especially when it comes to god-related matters. It’s like having power but not wanting the responsibility that comes with the power that’s given.

“The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised” (Job 1:21).

Livetoplay · 03/01/2023 15:16

That’s the thing with religion ‘belief’ can trump facts, and ‘faith’ is pulled out to counteract any kind of logic, or even opinion that doesn’t fall in line with the narrative of the believer.

believe all you want, just leave the human rights of others alone. Your ‘faith’ doesn’t come before my right to not believe in made up stories.

Marths · 03/01/2023 15:19

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 14:13

Sounds like you’re discriminating against people with mental illness or other differences - and that reflects your own prejudices against vulnerable people.

If religion is the only place in society that is welcoming people who are treated as outcasts and offering some humane acceptance and a sanctuary, then that’s a credit to religion (not a problem). It gives vulnerable people a chance to get better and build resilience if they have some care and support in the community.

Who Was Mary Magdalene?

The Christian story shows it’s also those who would normally be treated as outcasts in society and helped by faith who can be counted on the most in faith’s own time of need.

‘From the New Testament, one can conclude that Mary of Magdala (her hometown, a village on the shore of the Sea of Galilee) was a leading figure among those attracted to Jesus. When the men in that company abandoned him at the hour of mortal danger, Mary of Magdala was one of the women who stayed with him, even to the Crucifixion. She was present at the tomb, the first person to whom Jesus appeared after his resurrection and the first to preach the “Good News” of that miracle. These are among the few specific assertions made about Mary Magdalene in the Gospels.’

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Unless those outcasts are women or gay or of a different faith then the church has been at the forefront of prosecuting them for centuries.

OMG12 · 03/01/2023 15:21

houseofstark · 03/01/2023 14:26

IANBU

I'm shocked that anyone believes in a god these days. Surely they were old superstitions that we should have moved away from in the 21st century!

Why should we have moved away from them in the 21st century. Humans have believed in Gods and goddesses for tens of thousands of years across all geographies. Are you so arrogant to think that modern man is somehow so superior to everyone who has gone before😂. It’s a bit like the Victorian man thinking he was the pinnacle of evolution.😂

I would think on the balance of probability there is a higher power. I hope you’re not one of those idiots that say “Sky Daddy” or some other crap that’s a tell of lack of critical thinking are you?

there’s many philosophical theories and scientific theories which would suggest a higher power, something bigger than us. Of course if you only limit yourself to a “man on a cloud” or whatever the soundbite mantra is being repeated today with religious zeal you’re not going to find what you’re looking for.

Onnabugeisha · 03/01/2023 15:28

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 15:02

But why is a God almost always central to all those different cultural institutions of marriage you listed?

Is it because marriage is a contract and comes under law (god traditionally oversaw law).

Show quote history

All the civilisations I listed were polytheistic, so no, “a God” was actually never central to marriage in those cultures. In most of them, marriage was a contract between two families, it had nothing to do with law under a God or Gods/Goddesses for that matter.

ReadtheReviews · 03/01/2023 15:29

I'm just a clever ape, what do I know about the nature of the universe?

blebbleb · 03/01/2023 15:32

ReadtheReviews · 03/01/2023 15:29

I'm just a clever ape, what do I know about the nature of the universe?

I agree with this. We haven't a clue what happens outside of our mortal lives, I don't think our tiny minds are meant to comprehend such things. We are mere dots in the scheme of things.

ReadtheReviews · 03/01/2023 15:32

In other words, believing and not believing are two sides of the same bonkers coin.
Maybe is the only answer.

ShutTheFrontDory · 03/01/2023 15:34

If there was ever a sign that religion is bollocks Scientology would be the biggest indicator.

Religion is a cult.

I do however quite respect Buddhism.

Adelant · 03/01/2023 15:47

ShutTheFrontDory · 03/01/2023 15:34

If there was ever a sign that religion is bollocks Scientology would be the biggest indicator.

Religion is a cult.

I do however quite respect Buddhism.

A bit strange to single out Buddhism, given Buddhist monks were instrumental in ethnic cleansing of Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar.

PrincessConstance · 03/01/2023 15:53

blebbleb · 03/01/2023 15:32

I agree with this. We haven't a clue what happens outside of our mortal lives, I don't think our tiny minds are meant to comprehend such things. We are mere dots in the scheme of things.

Show quote history

So debating whether a supernatural entity exists is a pointless endeavour. We have no form of reference here in the natural world.
We don't even know what's going to happen to us an HR from now.

PrincessConstance · 03/01/2023 16:26

Onnabugeisha · 03/01/2023 14:46

Not convinced about that. The Bible has genesis as an origin myth. Adam and Eve are not married in Eden, or ever if you read the passages themselves. Eve is more portrayed as Adams property than a wife. There is no wedding, no mention of marriage at all.

The Old Testament relates the origin of Judaism as a covenant between Abraham and Jeohovah whereby the tribes of Israel came under the protection of Jehovah and in return sacrificed to and worshipped him as the one true God. Abraham founded Judaism, converting from the local polytheistic religion at the time which was the Ancient Sumerian religion as he lived in Ur.

He also had wives, concubines and female slaves…as in the concept of marriage predates Judaism and the writing of the Bible. The sacrament of marriage is a given in the Bible, there’s no story of divine inspiration from God to create marriage.

Show quote history

I understand the historical people from that time that existed after the garden of Eden. I also understand the historical importance of Abraham's covenant with Jehovah.
On your last point,
“This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh”
'God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.”
Jesus said.
Haven’t you read . . . that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said ‘For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.

There's no mention of property or implied ownership at all in the original version of marriage. Answering another question about homosexuality maybe it's frowned upon because the initial remit to go forth and multiply in addition to sex is sacred and only for married people.

pointythings · 03/01/2023 16:40

Answering another question about homosexuality maybe it's frowned upon because the initial remit to go forth and multiply in addition to sex is sacred and only for married people.

It isn't 'frowned upon'. It is actively persecuted and vilified by people of faith. Laws around homosexuality in countries in Africa, in Uganda and in much of the Middle East are actively promoted by people of Abrahamic faiths and intended to make the lives of homosexuals hell on earth. If your god created homosexuals, why does he/she tolerate that they should be treated like this unless he/she is monstrous? If you believe in this god and love him/her, what does that make you?

Onnabugeisha · 03/01/2023 16:48

PrincessConstance · 03/01/2023 16:26

I understand the historical people from that time that existed after the garden of Eden. I also understand the historical importance of Abraham's covenant with Jehovah.
On your last point,
“This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh”
'God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.”
Jesus said.
Haven’t you read . . . that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said ‘For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.

There's no mention of property or implied ownership at all in the original version of marriage. Answering another question about homosexuality maybe it's frowned upon because the initial remit to go forth and multiply in addition to sex is sacred and only for married people.

Show quote history

The English translation of Genesis 2:24 does indeed say,
For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?

However, this translation is from the original Aramaic that Genesis was written in. Where we see ‘wife’, the Aramaic word used was הָ֣אִשָּׁ֔ה which meant ‘woman’ but has been variously translated throughout the Bible into woman or wife depending on the translators whims.

Inspecto · 03/01/2023 16:54

ReadtheReviews · 03/01/2023 15:32

In other words, believing and not believing are two sides of the same bonkers coin.
Maybe is the only answer.

😂

This is the best conclusion!

PrincessConstance · 03/01/2023 17:19

pointythings · 03/01/2023 16:40

Answering another question about homosexuality maybe it's frowned upon because the initial remit to go forth and multiply in addition to sex is sacred and only for married people.

It isn't 'frowned upon'. It is actively persecuted and vilified by people of faith. Laws around homosexuality in countries in Africa, in Uganda and in much of the Middle East are actively promoted by people of Abrahamic faiths and intended to make the lives of homosexuals hell on earth. If your god created homosexuals, why does he/she tolerate that they should be treated like this unless he/she is monstrous? If you believe in this god and love him/her, what does that make you?

I'm pointing out highlighting what the Bible says about Homosexuality.
There's no distinction made in the bible between Homosexuals or unmarried people having sex. Fornication and adultery are condemned for all but married males and females. SEX outside of marriage is forbidden and divorce is only permissible on the grounds of Adultery.
It doesn't make ME anything. I'm not married and living with a partner. So I'm in the same category.

pointythings · 03/01/2023 17:23

@PrincessConstance the big difference is that in the countries I mentioned, other than much of the Middle East, unmarried heterosexual people are not persecuted in the same way that homosexual people are.

The other point is that all of this is done in the name of god - so if you worship this selfsame god, you're worshipping an entity that is not worthy of any kind of reverence. Unless it's all about being god-fearing in the literal sense (which is very Stockholm Syndrome) it's all a bit hard to understand.

PrincessConstance · 03/01/2023 17:40

pointythings · 03/01/2023 17:23

@PrincessConstance the big difference is that in the countries I mentioned, other than much of the Middle East, unmarried heterosexual people are not persecuted in the same way that homosexual people are.

The other point is that all of this is done in the name of god - so if you worship this selfsame god, you're worshipping an entity that is not worthy of any kind of reverence. Unless it's all about being god-fearing in the literal sense (which is very Stockholm Syndrome) it's all a bit hard to understand.

I originally entered the debate with the assertion GOD is provable via logical premises, re the classics. Then we deviated to the bible because people make emotional appeals about how unkind or brutal GOD is.
That still doesn't disprove the existence of a GOD or a supernatural entity.
Neither do teapots, fairytales, or any other smokescreens.

www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/gallery/2013/sep/05/holy-infographics-bible-visualised

I was brought up as an orthodox Catholic, DP a JW. However, he went to uni and whatever he learned in his 2 1st class degrees cemented his beliefs even further.
We've had some interesting debates.
Neither of us is remotely religious, it's just an interesting topic.