Page 10 | There is no god

OldKingCole · 2023-01-02T19:02:17+00:00

Inspired by another thread … I was surprised by the level of atheism professed … as I always though I was in a tiny, tiny minority. would be interested to see the MN response. IABU - there is a god IANBU - there is no god

FourTeaFallOut · 02/01/2023 21:10

Planters/ planets 😁

CharlieD2020 · 02/01/2023 21:11

@Boomboom22 actually I'd disagree with that. There are similarities but also really significant differences. I'm a Christian, and I have amazing friends with different faiths including Muslims. I love them dearly. We don't believe in the same God. There are huge differences that are really quite crucial.

If someone tells me they don't believe in God, I often want to ask them if they can tell me about the God they don't believe in. Often the God they describe is a world away from the God I know to be true. If anyone is interested in having a look about who the God of the Bible is, having a read of the book of Mark is a good starting place and you can read it in a couple of hours.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/01/2023 21:15

@CharlieD2020

There are still people the world over who die for no other reason than they are unwilling to be cowed about their religious belief. One thing is certain, none of the christians among them physically existed to witness any of the events attributed to jesus christ, but of course, this modern phenomenon is not exclusive to christians in any case. My point is, I don't believe you have to be personally involved or a witness to something in order for it to motivate you to the point whereby you are willing to die because of your commitment to it.

Personally I'm of the view that christianity was not born out of the actions of jesus christ in any case, more that it is just a clever rebranding of the far older cults of Isis and Osiris. This would go some way to explaining the rather odd timeline of the rise of christianity as an organised religion, and also resolve a lot of the anomalies regarding questions over the existence of jesus christ himself.

CharlieD2020 · 02/01/2023 21:17

Thanks @Boomboom22, I'm not sure our house has been 'clean' since toddler arrived to be honest. I'll settle for relatively tidy.

I respect your opinion, even though I disagree with it. I want to live in a society where people can have a faith, or no faith, and not be discriminated against or ridiculed because of that. It feels like Christians and people of other faith's are facing more animosity around where I live (UK) and this has been increasing for the last 10+ years. No one benefits from a society like that, it's dangerous.

Thanks for a nice chat and I hope you enjoy your evening too.

Supersimkin2 · 02/01/2023 21:20

I’ve always hugely admired atheists but wondered why, if they really think
This Is It, why they don’t do something to make the world a better place. Sorry to be annoying.

The more we know about reality the more exquisite it gets - that’s the only thing I’d say, which suggests that if there’s anything else, it might be similar.

My belief, such as it is in religion, is the only way to make sense of any of existence is to just to do something nice.

What Christ said applies everywhere. And it’s positive.

CharlieD2020 · 02/01/2023 21:20

@FourTeaFallOut sorry, I meant to tag you in my reply but tagged a PP. Still in sleep deprivation stage of parenting.

NestingSparrow · 02/01/2023 21:24

I am a Christian. I find the atheists on MN are nasty and enjoy ridiculing religious people, they really don’t make me want to give up my faith and join them - quite the opposite. They seem against freedom of thought (they insist religious people can’t pray for certain things or people, even in their own heads) and against freedom of speech (religious people aren’t allowed to tell others about their religion or worship in public); yet they are free to say horrible and incorrect things about religion. They also don’t want their children to make up their own minds about religion.
Take that prince among atheists, Richard Dawkins who says it’s immoral to continue with a Down’s Syndrome pregnancy- the foetus should be terminated. So many atheists admire him and his views. I am glad not to be part of this view.
My view is that there is evil in this world but it all comes from humans. God gave us a perfect world but also free will. Some humans choose to be cruel and we have screwed things up causing strife, wars, diseases and climate change.
God doesn’t interfere with our world now - where would he stop? We all do things wrong (I know I do). God views all sins as bad, even the small ones. Where would he draw the line? He would have to destroy us all - we all do hurtful things. He doesn’t destroy us though as he understands- he has been one of us. He punished himself (Jesus) to pay for all of our sins - we have already been judged and forgiven.
Of course many people will not choose to accept his forgiveness and that is fine, we have free will. God wants us to love him but only if we choose to. He will not force us. Anyone who wants to go to heaven can choose to but they can also choose not to.
i believe the only things that can be proven are maths and consciousness. I can’t prove God but I believe due to historical reports of Jesus (outside of the Bible), the laws of nature (which I feel point to a logical creation), the Big Bang (how can all these atoms come from absolutely nothing), genesis (which describes evolution - first the planets, then seas, then plants, then animals then man) and personal experiences.
The Bible isn’t a scientific textbook, it is a social guide. It isn’t the word of God, it is people’s experiences of God/Jesus and many stories are allegory. It is not supposed to be taken literally. A lot if it is cultural for the time it is written and not applicable to now (slaves were a fact if life at that time and not due to religion, in fact Christianity played a main time in abolishing slavery and is still actively fighting it today).
Religion does so much good in the world. Our church runs the food bank, night shelter, debt counselling, supports water/farming/housing projects, toddler groups, warm spaces. Please note I am NOT saying only religious organisations help with social projects, merely that they are behind lots of them.
People blame wars on religion but that is not true - it is men wanting more land and power that are the root cause of wars.
There are many bad Christians (and bad atheists - we are all drawing from the same gene pool) but Jesus was always trying to help the outsiders and outcasts and sinners. Jests always was drawn to the lost sheep, not the perfect ones.

FourTeaFallOut · 02/01/2023 21:24

I’ve always hugely admired atheists but wondered why, if they really think
This Is It, why they don’t do something to make the world a better place. Sorry to be annoying.

I suppose lots do work to make the world a better place but we don't form an - alliance of atheists? - to showcase the work that individuals do. They/ we just take on roles in society to help, or donate to charities or volunteer - the same as everyone else but without any team colours.

BenniesHedges · 02/01/2023 21:24

If there was a god then I'd be a multi millionaire, lazing on a Barbados beach with a cocktail.
It's not like I've not asked him enough.
Typical blokes selective hearing!

BrownEyedGhoul · 02/01/2023 21:25

If someone tells me they don't believe in God, I often want to ask them if they can tell me about the God they don't believe in

But you don't, because you realise what a very stupid question that is?

AmazonianAvatar · 02/01/2023 21:26

There were many gods in human history long before Christianity or Islam. Aztec and Mayan gods, pagan gods, Greek gods, Norse gods, mostly created out of a need to control the uncontrollable, weather to feed people - sun gods, rain gods etc.

We don’t believe in them anymore, education and science has eradicated them.

FinallyHere · 02/01/2023 21:27

Ever since I heard the bit about all the ills of the world being attributed to the woman, who is said to have tempted the man and so got them thrown out of paradise, I've been pretty sure this was a story dreamt up by a man.

What did the man say when caught doing the forbidden thing? Yeah, right, he blamed the woman.

Go figure.

Atheist it is for me.

And, another thing, it's a much finer thing to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do rather than to avoid being punished.

Supersimkin2 · 02/01/2023 21:28

Do stop calling believers stupid. Not helping yourself.

Good point about lone atheists working for good - Ricky Gervais is one.

itsmeagainagain · 02/01/2023 21:30

Haven’t read the whole thread but all those who don’t believe in God do you celebrate Christmas and if so why? Even though Jesus wasn’t born in December am curious as to why you would observe what many consider to be the date of his birth

AmadeustheAlpaca · 02/01/2023 21:31

NestingSparrow · 02/01/2023 21:24

I am a Christian. I find the atheists on MN are nasty and enjoy ridiculing religious people, they really don’t make me want to give up my faith and join them - quite the opposite. They seem against freedom of thought (they insist religious people can’t pray for certain things or people, even in their own heads) and against freedom of speech (religious people aren’t allowed to tell others about their religion or worship in public); yet they are free to say horrible and incorrect things about religion. They also don’t want their children to make up their own minds about religion.
Take that prince among atheists, Richard Dawkins who says it’s immoral to continue with a Down’s Syndrome pregnancy- the foetus should be terminated. So many atheists admire him and his views. I am glad not to be part of this view.
My view is that there is evil in this world but it all comes from humans. God gave us a perfect world but also free will. Some humans choose to be cruel and we have screwed things up causing strife, wars, diseases and climate change.
God doesn’t interfere with our world now - where would he stop? We all do things wrong (I know I do). God views all sins as bad, even the small ones. Where would he draw the line? He would have to destroy us all - we all do hurtful things. He doesn’t destroy us though as he understands- he has been one of us. He punished himself (Jesus) to pay for all of our sins - we have already been judged and forgiven.
Of course many people will not choose to accept his forgiveness and that is fine, we have free will. God wants us to love him but only if we choose to. He will not force us. Anyone who wants to go to heaven can choose to but they can also choose not to.
i believe the only things that can be proven are maths and consciousness. I can’t prove God but I believe due to historical reports of Jesus (outside of the Bible), the laws of nature (which I feel point to a logical creation), the Big Bang (how can all these atoms come from absolutely nothing), genesis (which describes evolution - first the planets, then seas, then plants, then animals then man) and personal experiences.
The Bible isn’t a scientific textbook, it is a social guide. It isn’t the word of God, it is people’s experiences of God/Jesus and many stories are allegory. It is not supposed to be taken literally. A lot if it is cultural for the time it is written and not applicable to now (slaves were a fact if life at that time and not due to religion, in fact Christianity played a main time in abolishing slavery and is still actively fighting it today).
Religion does so much good in the world. Our church runs the food bank, night shelter, debt counselling, supports water/farming/housing projects, toddler groups, warm spaces. Please note I am NOT saying only religious organisations help with social projects, merely that they are behind lots of them.
People blame wars on religion but that is not true - it is men wanting more land and power that are the root cause of wars.
There are many bad Christians (and bad atheists - we are all drawing from the same gene pool) but Jesus was always trying to help the outsiders and outcasts and sinners. Jests always was drawn to the lost sheep, not the perfect ones.

Completely agree with you. You have put into words what I have thought for a long time.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/01/2023 21:32

FourTeaFallOut · 02/01/2023 21:24

I’ve always hugely admired atheists but wondered why, if they really think
This Is It, why they don’t do something to make the world a better place. Sorry to be annoying.

I suppose lots do work to make the world a better place but we don't form an - alliance of atheists? - to showcase the work that individuals do. They/ we just take on roles in society to help, or donate to charities or volunteer - the same as everyone else but without any team colours.

This is pretty much what the Secular Society is.

I'd like to know how you personally quantify 'do something to make the world a better place'.

For me, that involves ending things like persecution, denial of rights, repression and discrimination based on sex, race, religion, wars and conflicts either driven by or hiding behind religious difference as an excuse, exploitation and repression of people in the third world by religious endeavours working under the guise of charitable 'aid' when in reality it's nothing more than plying a religious agenda, and the widespread privilege given to religious organisations and figureheads by government when it's highly questionable whether it is justified.

So from a secular perspective, atheism is a force for positive change, it is organised to a degree, and it is making the world a better place as a result.

magicthree · 02/01/2023 21:32

Wow! @NestingSparrow - your post is wonderful, and says exactly how I see the situation, but I would never have been able to put it so well.

It's rather telling that the nasty posts on this thread are from the atheists, and some of the childish nonsense they spout proves without a doubt that they haven't a clue about actual religious beliefs.

Parker231 · 02/01/2023 21:33

itsmeagainagain · 02/01/2023 21:30

Haven’t read the whole thread but all those who don’t believe in God do you celebrate Christmas and if so why? Even though Jesus wasn’t born in December am curious as to why you would observe what many consider to be the date of his birth

We celebrate Christmas as being the season of parties, going out for special meals, lots of drinks and time with family. This year we celebrated in Australia as an extra special Christmas present from DH and I to each other. We also celebrate Sinterklaas.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/01/2023 21:33

itsmeagainagain · 02/01/2023 21:30

Haven’t read the whole thread but all those who don’t believe in God do you celebrate Christmas and if so why? Even though Jesus wasn’t born in December am curious as to why you would observe what many consider to be the date of his birth

Personally no, I don't.

I usually have a wee chuckle when I answer that with 'no, I'm not a christian', because a common reply is 'oh, it was always a pagan festival anyway' etc etc, oblivious to the fact that I'm not a pagan either 😀

FourTeaFallOut · 02/01/2023 21:34

itsmeagainagain · 02/01/2023 21:30

Haven’t read the whole thread but all those who don’t believe in God do you celebrate Christmas and if so why? Even though Jesus wasn’t born in December am curious as to why you would observe what many consider to be the date of his birth

I'd be a fully paid up Moonie if it came with a feast and shiny baubles.

NibbledSwitch · 02/01/2023 21:34

I like this analogy by Dave Allen on YouTube

CharlieD2020 · 02/01/2023 21:34

Also, in response to PPs who have said that religion exists to control people, to make people conform for fear of going to hell.

The Bible might surprise you, as supposed to the 'religious' narrative that is often circulated. The Bible is clear, you don't 'earn' your salvation (your forgiveness). Nope, it's not earned by being 'good enough' or doing XYZ 'enough'. This is explained in lots of places in the Bible but here's one verse touching on it, probably the most well known verse in the Bible - John 3:16 says that God so loved the World that he sent him Son to die so that all who believe in him will not perish but have eternal life. As a Christian I believe that I've been saved because I believe in Jesus. That's it. I mess up, I get lots of things wrong, but there's grace for me. I don't have to fear God, there's noone too 'far gone'.

There's an expression that articulates this well (and better than I have). And that's "Religion says do, Jesus says done".

Thought I'd share that view point.

itsmeagainagain · 02/01/2023 21:34

@Parker231 you could do that at any time of the year though… why at Christmas?

Rollin · 02/01/2023 21:36

‘I am a Christian. I find the atheists on MN are nasty and enjoy ridiculing religious people, they really don’t make me want to give up my faith and join them - quite the opposite’

I couldn’t give a monkeys about your faith, lack of faith, or anyone else’s beliefs. I don’t care if you keep it, lose it, re-find it, give it up.
Atheists aren’t trying to convert you, the way many Christian’s try to convert non-believers, we don’t care. Just as long as you keep your beliefs away from everyone else’s human rights.

CaptainCorellisXylophone · 02/01/2023 21:36

Children are taught a religion by their parents, much like they are taught to brush their teeth. Later in their lives they consider whether they want to continue to believe it and to brush their teeth.

How many people do you know that believe a different religion from their parents? I'm not sure I've ever met one in my whole life, but then my friends are overwhelmingly either atheist or at least non-practising.