Men in women’s spaces

[BrightSaturn]

Just using this to rant really…

2 times in the past month I have encountered men in women only spaces.

1. I went to a feeding room to breastfeed my daughter in a shopping centre. I walked in and there were two young women in there changing their babies and one of their boyfriends just taking up one of the only chairs just sitting there, sitting using his phone. It’s a small room with 3 chairs in. I didn’t know what to do so I thought I’ll just sit down and get ready slowly and hopefully they’ll leave. I have fed in public but this was a small room so I felt vulnerable and like he shouldn’t be there and I didn’t want to lift my top up whilst he was sitting basically opposite me so I eventually asked if he could leave the room, they looked annoyed but thankfully he did go, after she looked at him and said “it’s up to you”…
2. I went into a changing room in a shop the other day with my mum, imagine a big room with seats in the middle and curtained dividers all round the outside. My mum was only trying on cardigans so really she just needed a mirror but in the middle on a seat was a boy about 17/18 years old. His girlfriend was trying on clothes. I couldn’t believe it! It wasn’t even doors on the changing rooms, just curtains. Why he thought this was acceptable I have no idea. Again I felt vulnerable and this time I didn’t have the confidence to ask him to leave. If my mum had been actually changing I would have probably found a shop assistant but still it’s not fair that we have to ask them to leave, he should not have been there in the first place!

aibu to think women’s spaces are being invaded more and more? How can we stop this from happening?

I think this idea that men and women should share spaces such as toilets, changing rooms, prisons, and so on is completely and utterly ridiculous.

There is a reason why we weren't all mixed before hand.

Most men are fine. But the Jimmy Saville's of the world are out there.

Breast feeding facilities aren’t mother and baby rooms.

So who else other than women/mothers breastfeeds their kids? The straightforward, simple, only biologically-possible answer to that question is 'no one'. Non-binary people might not adhere to tired gender stereotypes, and that's commendable, but physically and anatomically they are still either male or female.

I have no skin in this game: I breastfed in public without a care. Not every woman feels they can or wants to. And that's fine. But as for women doubling down and being strident over these issues, fostering a closed-shop attitude to men in BF groups, etc and not wanting to welcome 'My Nigel', I think it's quite a safe assumption that many of us did not start out this way. Females are socialized to be polite to men, 'let him down gently', and always be kind. It can be hard to overcome conditioning which has been drummed into most of us since birth.

And that's precisely where this attitude has brought us. These responses have to be viewed in the context surrounding roughly the past seven years, which have seen a sustained assault on our rights, our spaces, and has even come to view 'woman' itself as a dirty word. I, for one, do not accept being called a 'bleeder'. This is the result of a vociferous, misogynistic brand of Male Rights Activism that is unfortunately appropriating others' causes to its own end. And they are letting it, meaning my sympathy for them is also limited.

Actions bring consequences. Unfortunately, these are the direct consequences of telling women to shut up, sit down, make way for men's feelings over their very real needs, and 'Be Kind'. Now, as far as I'm concerned, men can suck it up. After all, that's what they are constantly telling women to do. This is why some of us are finding our attitudes to the whole shebang are hardening, why we're absolutely sick of being marginalized and pushed out on the basis of our sex, and why we are saying 'No'.

'No' is the word. NO.

I've already told you that in the 1980s and 90s women campaigned for the installation of rooms for breastfeeding mothers in department stores etc in the UK. I know this - I was there and used some of the rooms in different JL stores. I'm not sure why you're you're so rudely dismissing women's actual knowledge and experience about this.

Eh? He was that supportive of women feeding that he had to be in their private space? Odd.

Brilliant post. I want your words on billboards up and down the country. So many women fail to realise the ingrained misogyny they perpetrate on other women.

And where should women who are unable or unwilling to breastfeed in public or around men go?

Honestly, in the exact same way as the ‘trans’ discussion the simple answer is 3rd spaces. Family rooms with a bottle warmer and a changing mat AND a designated area for breastfeeding which is not open to men. Instead we are being told it’s acceptable that vulnerable women should budge over yet again - or in a PP’s case just above women should FF or express instead (great way to encourage breastfeeding rates in the UK!).

Yes, there will be some babies than need a quiet space to FF but there will be many, many more women who need a space BF with some privacy but they are being told ‘well it doesn’t matter to me’, ‘men need it just as much’ or ‘stop BF altogether’. Vulnerable women need spaces to get on with their lives - be it BF or trying on clothes and it shouldn’t be such a contentious point to suggest that men ask for more of their own spaces if they require them.

You’re aware that’s different to the claim that all feeding rooms were originally mother and baby rooms and converted?

Also you can type what you like, your recollection doesn’t seem to tally with reality, if it was such a big thing there would be some trace of it online.

Somewhere else?

Being uncomfortable BF in public is a personal issue, one that you can’t expect others to lose out over because you don’t want to feed in front of other parents.

If you are that funny about it there are options that don’t impact others. You could ask for the family feeding rooms to have some private spaces installed, you could ask for third spaces, in this scenario you are the trans party in this discussion so need to make the effort to petition for a third space.

It wasn’t their private space. Feeding spaces aren’t just for women btw

I do recall campaigns for women to have a place to go to breastfeed in public so they could go out and do their shopping. This was back in the seventies.

@Willowswood actually I've found woman are more judgy and more likely to look a woman up and down than a man. Its women that comment on friends not losing the baby weight or "letting themselves go" after having a kid not men. Also a transgender men is more vulnerable going into a males toilet because he XY not XX than girls in a mixed space when he's there.

Support doesn't have to mean privacy it can be things like passing an extra muslin cloth etc to make the experience more pleasant.

Stop putting blocks on men being good fathers, it's things like this that discourage shared maternity leave only further widening the gender pay gap. It would be better for people to stop breastfeeding than push more and more onto woman.

Out of interest just looked on Intu as they have eldon square and the metro centre near us......they aren't even called parent rooms!! They are baby feeding and changing rooms so no gender mention at all.

@Tryingformore1

How is a woman supposed to feel comfortable getting her boobs out to breastfeed her baby with a man in the same area??

What sort of man thinks this is in anyway acceptable? My DH would be absolutely mortified if he was in an area where a woman was trying to breastfeed. And rightly so.

Goodness me, do we really need to spell this out to people?

@Grumpybutfunny

Nice try but that's completely missing the point. I'd rather have a woman look me up and down when I'm trying to breastfeed than any man, whether he's actually looking at me or not.

It's just the fact that the man is there in the first place.

By all means campaign for a separate room that dads can use when ffing. No one is stopping you. But these were rooms women campaigned for, as PPs have said.

I don't want anyone who was born with male genitals in a women's space as they are stronger and faster than those born with female genitals. Im sure we are also all aware that males are more likely to attack females than the other way round.

Therefore, I don't agree females should be accommodating men in their safe spaces.

If certain men have the need for a safe space, they should request one for themselves.

Then men with babies who fidget when feeding could find another quiet space... somewhere else?

Mothers are the predominant carers for infants. I’m struggling to find the exact stats but men do not on the whole take parental leave. Apparently only a third took paternity leave in 21-22. From what I can see, it looks like only 2% of women took SPL:

www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/article/1747288/use-shared-parental-leave-dropped-17-per-cent-during-covid-study-finds

Despite that, you still think that women who need dignity and privacy need to budge over to allow for the few men who are feeding (or worse, hanger on men who are sitting around as extras) than the women who really do require the space.

These rooms were created with breastfeeding in mind because for a very long time (and somewhat now) breastfeeding in public was frowned upon and women needed to be hidden away elsewhere.

Finding breastfeeding uncomfortable is a societal issue - not a personal one. Until breasts stopped being viewed with the male gaze as sexual objects it will also cause tensions. There’s also a very real issue of women who have a history of violence or sexual assault not wanting to expose their breast in public. And of course women who for religious reasons cannot feed in public. It’s odd that you don’t seem to understand why there is a need for this space for breastfeeding women - and specifically over a man who unless he is actually feeding doesn’t need to be in there at all. And even then I’d question if it’s really needed.

I feel like we are a stones throw away from the suggestions we’ve all heard before - change in the toilet or don’t go out if that’s hard for you. And always, shows how accommodating we are to everyone - expect vulnerable women who need a bit of privacy and dignity.

Most women do! I know lots of breastfeeding mothers (and am one) and they all breastfeed in public where men might be and like knowing they are welcome to do so. Some use a cover. Obviously there are some women who won't do this and would only feed in a private room but your "how is a woman supposed to feel comfortable" question is ridiculous.

Absolutely wrong! The 'trans' party in this are men coming in to areas where women get their tits out. If men want to bottle feed, they are the ones who need to campaign for mens spaces. Women breastfeed, men don't. Men are the interlopers here, don't dare twist it.

They weren’t rooms anyone campaigned for, if you want a special breastfeeding room no one is stopping you for asking for one.

What you can’t do is remove facilities from parents of either sex.

It is a traditional places for mothers to breastfeed. It is not for men. Men don't breastfeed. Nursing mothers is the clue. They need to petition for their own feeding spaces.

Hint - online wasn't such a thing back in the 80s early 90s. Just because our experiences weren't recorded online for posterity doesn't mean they didn't happen.
Women did campaign for specific spaces for breastfeeding in shops and shopping centres back in the 1980s / 90s. Many of these facilities have now been converted in mixed sex family / parent rooms. Laudable in some ways but sadly excluding those women wanting privacy from unknown men when breastfeeding.
I'm not going to engage any further with someone displaying such unexpected ingrained hostility towards women so you have a good day.

A shopping centre I go to have these large rooms for changing, bottle feeding facilities with seats but also separate rooms for bf with a sign. The airports I've used in different countries have a few family rooms and I lock the door and use the room to myself. There's one couch, one toilet and one changing facility in a tiny space just similar to disabled toilets and once made the mistake of leaving the door open where a man and a woman came in whilst mid exposed, the man just stood in the corner in close proximity and l never made that mistake again thinking If I'm feeding and someone else can make use of the changing facility at the same time. I told the lady cleaning the facilities and she said there's a lock on their for a reason, next time make sure you lock the door.

Yes, and this is why they were for women. They have now changed to 'parents' rooms. Unfortunately people are not informed of this and can only think back like 6 years ago. Not 30 or 40 years ago.

If women want to get their tits out that’s on them, it’s a feeding room, for parents, male or female.

it’s unreasonable to expect people allowed to and even in many cases encouraged to use them not to use them because a minority of women are uncomfortable.

Typically the person with the problem needs to own the campaigning for a separate solution.

Men have already got a space to FF, they’re called feeding and or parent rooms, you’re the one who wants that changed. Shameful really.

Something that is being missed here is that feeding rooms of any kind barely even exist. I've never seen one and many on this thread say they've never seen one so complaining that women have nowhere to go to breastfeed in private because men might be in the parents room misses the point.