Re Ambulance/ nurse strikes

[TheWindIsChanging]

The last thread reached 1000 messages so assume that means it automatically closes any thread so thought I would continue the debate. My view is that it is unreasonable for any person in charge of a person's life to simply down tools regardless of pay issues. I wouldn't disagree pay is too low but so are many jobs yet not all jobs carry the responsibility of saving lives which will be lost during the strikes.
It's no great shock the usual suspects are screaming about the tories again waving tiny fists around red faced incandescent with rage. The reality is increasing wages across the board would lead to an inflation death spiral which happened in the 70s further decreasing quality of life for all of us, not just the NHS workers.
Inflation is the main issue that causes issues with wages, and the reason for this is principally covid lockdowns which ( cue the drumroll) were brought in to protect the useless NHS... the irony that this same "service" is now complaining about economic problems which it helped to instigate is hilarious. I can't remember a single year in the last 20 where it wasn't nearly "bursting at the seems" and given the amount of tax payers money disappearing into it like the metaphorical black hole perhaps time it was scrapped. I don't see these same issues in other countries..a healthcare worker is not a typical profession as the basic goal is to save lives not abandoning ship. As others have said, all very well to type YABU, but I suspect the wind would change quickly if it was a relative who died as a consequence of these disgusting strikes which will cost lives make no mistake about it. That said, the same people raging about the state of the economy were labelling anyone not supporting lockdowns as a " granny killer" which anyone with an IQ over 70 could see would lead to this mess.

I completely agree, IAmADancer, but as suggested this probably isn't the most productive place to discuss obesity, coming back as it does to a subject people would rather not address

Pursue it and I absolutely guarantee you'll be told that you "have no idea", "simply don't understand" and in any case are merely aiming to "fat shame"

I think the NHS would be even more screwed if those awful private sector workers stopped earning the amounts they earn, and paying 45% tax rate on their earnings.

Just because people earn above average wage, doesn’t mean they are nasty hateful human beings who despise anyone that earns less than them.
Most higher earners come from working class roots, are likely to have been the first in their family to go to university, wholeheartedly support the nurses and doctors striking but want to have proper conversations about the NHS not just continue to throw unending amounts of money at it.
But yeah, it’s easier to demonise people who dare to earn a bit more than everyone else and call them Tory scum

I’m glad the nightingales weren’t needed because if we had got to that situation it would have been game over for anyone with any other illness in the normal hospitals.
the vaccine has had an enormous effect. April 20 and January 21 in the peaks we had 100s of critically ill patients with covid dying everywhere. Mothers and sons, husbands and wives, fathers and daughters. It was horrendous and i am sure there will be huge mental health consequences for families and staff.
now there are lots of people in hospital with covid but I can’t remember that last time someone I cared for died from it. While in the peak I was losing several patients a day on my itu. And numbers in itu now are tiny. So the vaccine worked.

The tax doesn't have to be paid by private sector workers. Public sector worker also pay tax and if they earned more they would pay more tax.

And yes lots had ‘underlying conditions’ like mild asthma, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, BMI of 30. Not conditions that were going to kill them any time soon. think how
many people you know have one of those and if you think they are terminally ill.

@IAmADancer solving the obesity crisis is going to be difficult - and it's down to money. Wages in the UK are low, and the food that is worst for us in terms of weight is also the cheapest. So dealing with that would be the solution, but guess what? It's going to cost money. Actual investment in the health of the population. Not going to be popular with Conservative voters.

The diversity managers that people like to rail against are (at £4m) not all that expensive, and they do a lot of good work. Having a workforce that is representative of the general population is good for people's health because it means the workforce is trained to recognise issues that are particular to people's cultural backgrounds. Just one example of this is in mental health, where people from Afro-Caribbean cultures have been historically less likely to engage with mental health services, more likely to do so late when their condition is already very severe, and less likely to engage with medication and therapy. This is now very slowly changing because staff are better at engaging with this group so that they are able to trust the professionals and seek help before their acuity levels become so very high. There are many other examples, and going on about 'diversity managers' is a cheap shot used by people who actually don't know what these people do.

I agree to an extent with the point of personal responsibility but prioritising patients on lifestyle decisions would never work as someone obese could simply claim mobility problems which may be a legitimate reason contrary to laziness/ gluttony etc. It would be going down a dangerous road similar to when people were implying the unvaccinated shouldn't be treated etc.

(Private sector pay rises) are the rewards of honest enterprise, not the undeserved largess of feckless public servants sponging off the taxpayer!

I realise you were being ironic, Eleganz, but while no-one with sense would describe most public employees that way, there's a siginificant minority it applies to only too well - and that's despite the endless wailing about being "cut to the bone"

Long experience teaches that a key factor in this is an utter lack of accountability, allied to the idea that "It's not our money" - factors which also contribute to the mess the NHS has become

You have zero comprehension of how these strikes are taking place.
Trusts have given a list of areas to the RCN where there are risks to patients safety and DEROGATION applies.
You are stirring up drama which isn't going to happen as all Critical care, ED, wards , emergency theatres, Chemotherapy units are derogated.
Staff are working normally in these areas.
There is NO risk to life.
It just would not be allowed.
Other areas such as education, outpatients, clinics, essentially the routine stuff are striking.
It's a Bank Holiday service in effect.
Yes annoying and inconvenient. But no threat to life.
Before starting nonsense threads like this please do a bit of reading first as it's making you look very dim indeed.

The idea that a health service which can't effectively treat cancer patients or people suffering heart disease in a timely fashion should channel resources into employing people based on the melanin in an individuals skin is utterly ridiculous. The vast majority of people don't care what colour/race a Dr is, they simply want to see one which in 2022 is a trial in itself having to go through a laborious process of online nonsense. The diversity managers are part of the same woke nonsense brigade who now have to ask men if they are pregnant before treatment..time we returned to nurses and Dr's not pandering to virtue signalling rubbish which has infiltrated every aspect of healthcare which takes up time and money.

Meh, income tax only accounts for something like 13% of UK revenue so not that much more screwed tbh.

Anyway people earning £100k, £200k, even £500k a year aren't really an issue.
It's the UHNW individuals that need to be targeted.

The problem is those same UHNW individuals have played a blinder and tricked "those who dare to earn a little bit more" into being their little puppets and doing their bidding for them.

Instead of the majority of the population getting together and saying no more to the obscene levels of wealth inequality on display, we have a situation where those "who earn a little bit more" are convinced everyone is after a piece of their tiny little pie and fight tooth and nail to stop any reforms from actually tackling the real issue.

@orchid220 but I agree that public sector workers should be paid more. I just hate the demonisation on here of high earners

That makes a lot of sense, TheWind, though what really bothers me is the underlying expectation that "someone else" will always pick up the pieces for personal choices

I absolutely accept it's a complex issue, but am not convinced that avoiding it or constantly looking to blame others is the answer either

Sure, if only the NHS would be a bit more racist and transphobic, everything would be fine. Nurses would suddenly work for free, new ambulance crews would just magic into existence.

I'd like to see your evidence that most high earners come from working class backgrounds.

I'm a first gen university goer from working class stock working in a job that means I'm a higher rate tax payer (in the public sector so not sure what that makes me). I work with lots of middle class people in similar jobs, public and private sector I am definitely not representative of the majority at all.

The idea that the private sector is the sole contributor to the economy is false. Do public sector workers not spend their money in the economy they live in? We all have mortgages with private banks, pay utilities bills to private suppliers, buy food from private supermarkets, etc and there are millions of us working in the public sector. It is not at all simple or obvious that restraining public sector pay is better for the private sector and private sector employees at all. More public sector workers defaulting on mortgages and loans, missing bill payments and reducing their discretionary spending doesn't help most of the real economy, only those of whom this is used to fund tax cuts (i.e. the very wealthy).

I was very grateful for a non Daily Fail explanation of why the NHS has diversity managers. It makes a lot of sense that people who aren't standard white English speaking, heterosexual people can be at risk of either being averse to seeking help, or getting sub-standard help that does not take into account their particular features and risks, and that seeking to mitigate that can help make NHS service more efficient and efficacious.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory i completely agree with what you’ve said but on MN there doesn’t seem to be any understanding of what a HNWI is versus someone who earns &100k plus. They all just get lumped into the Tory voting, scum of the earth rhetoric and I find that frustrating as most people I know earning that amount of money are more than happy to pay more tax if it helps. I know this because I am one of those people as is my DH

No it didn't, the virus is a much milder variant and the vaccine fades in efficacy in a matter of months so bearing in mind most people have gone many months now with no booster and the hospitals aren't overflowing with covid patients, your post makes no sense. Omicron has a fatality rate similar to being struck by lightening risks for younger people ( close to 0) and milder than flu for the elderly.

I'd sooner see a cancer specialist than a " diversity manager " just so I can log in and mock the "daily fail" online but then that's just me. In the real world I think most people would agree with me

@Eleganz i am one of those people as is my DH.
Both my family and my DH’s family come from working class families. East end of London and Pitsea. We were the first to go to university and most people I work with come from the same background.

DH is now a CFO for a well known publication and I work in strategy.

just to say I am now getting on a plane, just in case anyone says im
not responding.

I am also really appreciative of everyone’s viewpoints and am taking on board everyone’s opinions.

I was referring to the Nurses strike and put derogation in caps as it was overlooked on the last thread.
I'm a nurse not ambulance crew so that's what I was referring to.
I'm not unhinged, I'm someone who has knowledge and understanding of how the strike is being conducted which you seem to either misunderstand or ignore.

The old racist and transphobe card played when people laugh at " diversity managers " and men asked if they are pregnant. Same old nonsense .. people like you would watch a game of snooker and say the cue ball was racist for potting the black ball saying it was a colonialist. Virtue signalling race baiters.. most of the population just want a Dr or nurse, they couldn't care less about skin colour.

Would you rather see a male or female specialist when dealing with an issue that is specific to females? Diversity isn't just about race or sexuality.

Yes, I agree in principle. I had a relative that never helped himself and resorted to alcohol drunk every day. Even though I obviously wanted him to get treatment, I thought he should be a lower priority than a child suffering from cancer or any age suffering from something out of their control.