Any police about? Need input

[MolliciousIntent]

Need some information about what rights people have vis a vis the police... If they ask to question you in relation to a crime, are you allowed to say no? What can they do if you say no? What happens if you refuse to answer their questions? Can you be arrested for not cooperating?

I was asked to come in to be interviewed as a voluntary attender about an allegation against me. On arriving at the station I requested a duty solicitor to advise me before the interview and to accompany me in the interview. The officer told me I was only entitled to a duty solicitor if I was under arrest and heavily pressured me to agree to be interviewed under caution without advice from a solicitor, saying I would have to wait for hours locked in a cell until they arrived.

I held out and insisted on a solicitor so I was arrested and held in a cell for three hours before the solicitor arrived.

@stillvicarinatutu as a serving police officer, could you comment on whether or not the police acted correctly in accordance with the law in this case?

Duty solicitor is free for anyone being interviewed.
It takes more arranging for a voluntary interview and many officers will say bring a solicitor with you - and you can do that but you ARE still entitled to free and independent legal advice whether under arrest or attending voluntarily. That's the law and it's a right in law for anyone being Interviewed.

@AuroraBains
On the basis of what you've said here no, police did NOT act correctly.

You're quite right, even for a voluntary interview you have the right to legal representation. That right is not just for arrestees - in fact part of the spiel that SHOULD have been read to you at the beginning of the interview (along with the bit where you're not under arrest and can leave at anytime) reminds you of that fact. What should've happened was either you waited for the sol/rep to attend then go ahead with the interview, or it should've been rearranged. Also, you really should've been advised to arrange a solicitor to attend with you when the appointment for the interview was made to avoid all this.
My question would be - how on earth did the officer get this past the custody Sgt? On what grounds did they authorise your detention? Last I knew, waiting for a solicitor wasn't grounds to detain someone. What did the officer say to the Sgt?

How long ago was this aurora?

You have grounds to complain.
Scary that such a thing was allowed to happen and I say that as a serving officer.

If it was deemed that a pace 9 interview would suffice then I would argue there were no grounds for arrest . Arrest has to be justified. Simply not having a solicitor arranged is not justification for arrest and I would complain .
As I said - duty is free and Independent and available to all .

dexter it doesn't sound like they got as far as the introductions where the entitlements are explained.

In my experience just never talk to the police in general, suspect or witness. And I say that as someone who was married to a police officer for 8 years.

Lifted from a solicitor's website:

If a police officer stops you on the street, they may ask you what your name is, what you’re doing in the area and where you’re going. These are known as ‘stop and account’ and do not mean you are guilty of a crime. You do not have to stop or answer any of these questions, and refusing to do so is not an offence.

There is one circumstance when you must answer if they ask for your details and this is when they have reason to believe you have engaged, or are engaging, in anti-social behaviour. Anti-social behaviour is defined as acting in a way that is causing or likely to cause distress to one or more people in another household. To be categorised as anti-social behaviour, the particular behaviour must be persistent.

In this particular instance it is a criminal offence to refuse to give your details. You can be arrested if the police think it’s necessary to do so in order to find out your name and address. You should never give false information. Doing so can be seen as obstructing the police in the course of their duty.

If there is no other reason to suspect you of a crime, refusing to give your details is not enough to arrest you. If they have no reasonable grounds to detain, search or arrest you then you are free to leave.

Thanks @stillvicarinatutu . Sadly, as I suspected the officer concerned lied to me and I now have an arrest record where there is no reason for it. Once the interview had taken place and I gave them overwhelming evidence that the allegations were false, the matter was NFA'd.

Not getting at you here, as you seem from your posts to be one of the good guys, but sadly incidents like this destroy people's trust in the police. You need to direct your anger at those in your ranks who pull stunts like this, not the posters here who have suffered due to their misbehaviour.

Trust me aurora I do - and I do t blame anyone if they mistrust officers who do t know the bloody law . It's just d of a prerequisite of the job ! In your position I would lodge a complaint. Grounds were not there for arrest .
You may be entitled some compensation. In your shoes I would complain.

This shit needs weeding out. Officers bending the rules, making it up, not being arsed to follow proper procedures- dont tolerate it !

I cannot wait to bloody retire . Jobs gone to absolute rats .

I'd be VERY interested in the reasons and grounds for detention. It's dependent on what the officer told the custody Sgt what the necessity for the arrest was, this would go some way to them forming the grounds for detention. But that would be on CCTV (hopefully). If I were you, I'd seek legal advice on this.
@AuroraBains I agree, I believe you have a strong basis for a complaint.
This isn't an excuse, but in my experience there are a lot of inexperienced officers who don't know proper procedures because the training simply isn't there. And what training there is is diluted, due to budgetary constraints. I despair for the police service, I really do.

Couldn't agree more with this post.

And, as for the police just gathering evidence, and not being judge and jury - I'm afraid I beg to differ. Like I said in my earlier post, my experience was horrific. The way they behaved towards me was brutal, all because my testimony didn't fit with what they wanted to hear.

@stillvicarinatutu I've been around here long enough to know that your advice is solid, and I've seen you give valuable advice many times over the years.

I just wonder about your observation of your colleagues though. I'm sure you're not a 'bad egg', but so many of us have had such awful experiences at the hands of the police - and we can't all be wrong?

To give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe your own Force is free of poor behaviour - but that's certainly not the case with my area's Force. They are notorious for their brutality.

Often, it feels a bit like officers are pulling rank, and sticking together - when, what we really need is for the decent officers to speak up?

This was some time ago, about 14 years. Have the rules changed since then?
I don't remember the custody sergeant giving me any reason as he placed me under arrest. This happened at 10am and they told me I had better arrange for someone else to pick up my DC from school or they would arrange for social services to go to the school and take them into temporary care.

When my solicitor challenged them on the reason for arresting me after voluntarily attending, the officer said I had threatened to leave so they arrested me to stop me leaving. This wasn't true, all I had done was asked how long it would take as I needed to pick up my DC by 5pm.

I did bring a complaint at the time through my MP. It wasn't taken seriously, I was told I was making a fuss about nothing and I was called a liar. They also dismissed my concern raised that the arrest would stop me using the US visa waiver scheme, saying I was wrong.

This experience has completely destroyed my trust in the police when I had previously had a very positive attitude to them as a law abiding professional person. I now advise my DC to not trust anything the police say to them and to never say a word to them without a solicitor.

Aurora- I would contact the iopc.

Nothing in what you say and how you were treated is right .

I don't know how long you have to complain but I'd do it anyway .

You were wrongfully arrested. You cannot simply arrest someone because they dont have legal rep and ask for it - totally wrong - unlawful.
Complain.

There will be some audit trail - that you were invited for pace 9 originally.

It's probably all paper documents but they'll still be there in the achives.

I got a case reopened last year from 15 years ago but I had to go roooting for the file as it was paper and in archives.

Complain. Go through the IOPC .

@stillvicarinatutu thank you, I had no idea there was a possibility of pursuing this after such a long time. The whole experience caused me serious trauma and I have suffered serious anxiety and depression since which has lost me jobs and still affects my life. I was a confident, happy person before but I don't think I'll ever be the same again.

Thanks for taking the time to advise me. I will look into raising a complaint, if I could get some recognition of how wrong this was I think it would be good for my mental health.

Aurora it was without doubt unlawful from what you've said . Yes pursue it - even if it's just acknowledged that this was wrong - you should never have been arrested.

I can't speak to whether it's shorter than in the UK, but our warning is more than just that. It has to include five elements.

While the exact language above is not required by Miranda, the police must advise the suspect that:
they have the right to remain silent;
anything the suspect does say can and may be used against them in a court of law;
they have the right to have an attorney present before and during the questioning; and
they have the right, if they cannot afford the services of an attorney, to have one appointed, at public expense and without cost to them, to represent them before and during the questioning

I was always told you didn’t have to submit a witness statement.

However, an ex friend reported a crime to the police that had been ongoing and named me as a witness, this friend was a compulsive liar and I refused to give a statement. I was then threatened by the police that refusing to give a witness statement could lead to me being arrested for withholding information so I can’t even advise properly.

@stillvicarinatutu any insight on this? sorry to bombard you, you’ve had a fair few questions this evening x

Never, ever speak to police without legal representation. I have first hand witnessed police lie and invent laws to suit their own agenda. Best case scenario they are ignorant and/or lazy, worst case it’s malicious.

Completely false.
No one can force you to give a witness statement.

And you cannot be arrested for refusing to give one

You CAN be summonsed to court by a judge - but that's absolutely out of police remit .

@stillvicarinatutu i thought the same!
it’s like Russian roulette with the police at the minute, bending rules etc

Sadly it shouldn't be .....

Given the type of stuff I'm seeing lately - I would just always advise getting the free and independent legal advice if you are either arrested or invited for a pace 9 (voluntary interview) or arrange your own solicitor.
Dont speak before you've had legal advice .