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AIBU?

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Original poster

AIBU to think this might be it for the UK and will never get better?

185 replies

Desperado40 · 19/12/2022 06:37

I am sorry for a very pessimistic view, but I feel we are stuck in a downward spiral in the UK. Is it just me, or does anyone else think that we will be stuck in this loop with the effects of Brexit and a decade of austerity taking decades to ever recover from (if ever?).
If anyone has a better outlook, please let me know.

OP posts:
helford · 19/12/2022 09:04

MintJulia · 19/12/2022 08:42

Anyone who remembers the 70s, will know that this is cyclical. We'll have a few tough years and then we'll bounce back.

In a way, the fuel crisis is a good thing because it will force governments to stop fannying around and commit more effort towards net zero, in the same way it will force more home owners to upgrade their insulation, heating systems, cars etc to more economic, greener versions.

How? in the 70s, we had North Sea coming on stream, not now.

Net zero? seriously, how do you think we can afford to upgrade insulation or buy an EV ?

Energy price support ends in April, meaning prices would have trebled in 12 months.

Not all is bad of course but to dismiss it as "part of global eco cycle" is foolish, UK has specific issues, not least Brexit, out of science and tech programs and loss of EU essential workers eg carers & dentists, wrecking the NHS & our teeth.

atotalshambles · 19/12/2022 09:10

I think it is everywhere , OP. There are big issues facing the world currently and I'm not sure that it is possible to escape them wherever you go. Each separate country has its own extra issues - for us Brexit, NHS etc.. I think you have to remain optimistic and do what you can to make the world a better place. I think it is good for everyone to experience life in another country - so if you want to live overseas then go for it! Nowhere is perfect but it puts perspective by experiencing different things.

Sarahcoggles · 19/12/2022 09:14

Those who think the UK is the worst place - please tell me why more people than ever are risking their lives to come here? Why would that be, if most other countries in Europe are in a better state? No one ever answers that question. If so many people in the UK want to leave because it's so dreadful, why do so many other people want to come here?
Maybe, just maybe, people here are moaning too much, and they should try living elsewhere. Perhaps they'd find out how it feels to be so desperate that you're prepared to cross the channel in a tiny boat.

bellac11 · 19/12/2022 09:16

Sarahcoggles · 19/12/2022 09:14

Those who think the UK is the worst place - please tell me why more people than ever are risking their lives to come here? Why would that be, if most other countries in Europe are in a better state? No one ever answers that question. If so many people in the UK want to leave because it's so dreadful, why do so many other people want to come here?
Maybe, just maybe, people here are moaning too much, and they should try living elsewhere. Perhaps they'd find out how it feels to be so desperate that you're prepared to cross the channel in a tiny boat.

Most asylum seekers go to other european countries and every single time this sort of question is asked that answer is given. Look at the numbers yourself if you dont believe me

So its not accurate to say that no one ever answers this question

We take in a very very small number of refugees/asylum seekers

Ncgirlseriously · 19/12/2022 09:18

Well if the Tories get in again I think I give up.
There’s this weird attitude that anyone who wants to improve the UK in any way is unpatriotic or should leave, and that’s just fucking bizarre to me. Yes, we love moaning, but that doesn’t mean that we have no genuine complaints. And we’re so used to the government being fucking corrupt and useless that people act like expecting them to do ANYTHING this unreasonable.

MarshaBradyo · 19/12/2022 09:21

BadShepherd · 19/12/2022 08:50

Tbh - all of you quacking on about range rovers and distribution of wealth for social care/NHS/etc probably need to nip over to scotsnet to see the folk running away from the new tax obligations imposed by the Scottish government to fund them.

Everyone wants more - until the bill arrives.

Yep often the answer is tax everything more - but it’s not in reality

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/12/2022 09:21

Sarahcoggles · 19/12/2022 09:14

Those who think the UK is the worst place - please tell me why more people than ever are risking their lives to come here? Why would that be, if most other countries in Europe are in a better state? No one ever answers that question. If so many people in the UK want to leave because it's so dreadful, why do so many other people want to come here?
Maybe, just maybe, people here are moaning too much, and they should try living elsewhere. Perhaps they'd find out how it feels to be so desperate that you're prepared to cross the channel in a tiny boat.

Someone always comes up with this total canard.

The fact that people are risking their lives to come to the UK doesn't mean that the UK is a uniquely special or charmed place. These are absolutely desperate people who are either being persecuted in their home countries or who cannot generate enough wealth to support their families in their home countries or both. They are not only coming to the UK, they are trying to come to many other relatively affluent countries because they perceive it to be a choice between that and destitution and/or death.

No one is saying the UK is worse than Syria or Afghanistan, as you well know. The question posed by the OP is whether the UK has reached the bottom point of its relatively strong historical trajectory and will it will ever get better and plenty of people have posed well thought out answers to this question.

Of course the UK is still a relatively affluent country compared to Syria or Afghanistan (as are most countries in Europe) and has a relatively stable government and civil society. That doesn't mean things are getting better here.

Your silly whataboutery doesn't begin to answer this question.

Thereisnolight · 19/12/2022 09:22

Ylvamoon · 19/12/2022 07:11

I think what is currently happening is a huge adjustment.

We had it reasonably good over the last few decades.

Cheap goods, cheap food cheap energy,... you name it we had it.
Consumerism is on its knees as economies can't supply the stuff cheply anymore. Reasons are the shortages of raw materials and other emerging economies wanting the same consumer goods as us. Add politics and war and here we are.

Generally we need to learn to consume less and be more self reliant as a country/ continent. This will take time, decades? Maybe, who knows.

I think so too.

Hopefully the global population will come down or at least stop going up so that we won’t have to keep building accommodation on every single green space. There will be cleaner and cheaper energy. Less pollution, less landfill, less chopping down of forests, less killing of animals. Educated women, leading to fewer, more-valued and better looked-after children.

Less tolerance for the narcissists in each and every country who hoard resources by violence or trickery, then dole them out at a high price, and start or perpetuate wars to keep themselves on top.

MintJulia · 19/12/2022 09:32

@helford "Net zero? seriously, how do you think we can afford to upgrade insulation or buy an EV ?"

Given that a record amount was spent on Black Friday, that holiday companies were flat out this summer, yes, people do have money to spend. Not everyone of course but some do. Look at how many people spent £200 on an air frier.

And B&Q was sold out of loft insulation at the weekend. People are taking sensible steps to help themselves.

I don't have money at the moment, but the soaring gas price has prompted me to get a quote for a GSHP. I can't afford it but I now know what I need and it's in the 10 year plan for when my gas boiler dies.

pumpkincivilisation · 19/12/2022 09:34

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/12/2022 07:52

I think its a combination of cyclical and structural stuff. We are at the bottom of the trough of a particularly bad economic cycle at the moment. That will inevitably come to an end... it always does. I'm old enough to remember several previous recessions and it always feels a bit apocalyptic but we always come out of it.

That said, I think there are some structural things going on with the UK system which make it worse. Our political parties don't really reflect our views and needs as a nation, our political institutions don't function properly and our infrastructure, much of which was set up in the post-war period of political consensus, doesn't work (NHS being the most obvious example). Against that there's the continual decline of the UK's relevance. We used to be a powerful empire and increasingly are an irrelevant, moderately affluent but quite dysfunctional country not affiliated to any particular power and with ideas above its station.

The Brexit delusion is just the last dying fart of these dreams of empire and its failure will demonstrate to future generations how delusional we were as a nation around this period. That said I'm optimistic that future generations will have a more pragmatic view of Britain (possibly a different shape of Britain) and adjust their expectations to create a more sustainable and grown-up nation state. It will get better but probably not in the way some people are hoping.

This... we have political parties which don't represent our interests as a nation...

ILoveeCakes · 19/12/2022 09:36

You can live a perfect life in an imperfect world.

Nothing I can do about inflation. I don't care about Harry. But I can be with my family and do my hobbies - the things that make me happy.

Unifolorn · 19/12/2022 09:37

BadShepherd · 19/12/2022 08:50

Tbh - all of you quacking on about range rovers and distribution of wealth for social care/NHS/etc probably need to nip over to scotsnet to see the folk running away from the new tax obligations imposed by the Scottish government to fund them.

Everyone wants more - until the bill arrives.

What do they propose then? If people want a social care system or an adequate healthcare service the money does have to come from somewhere. Would people rather pay privately? The reality is that neither system as they are is sustainable, although to be fair there's a lot of stuff NHS Scotland could cut back on that NHS England already has before they raise tax. Free prescriptions, free parking, baby boxes- of course not ideal but further cuts and loss of subsidies will be the alternative and they can all go.

Sarahcoggles · 19/12/2022 09:38

@Thepeopleversuswork you see, I'm not sure people are acknowledging that the UK is better than Afghanistan or Syria. I see thread after thread of posters saying the UK is utterly awful, a global laughing stock, and that anyone who could would leave (but now can't, due to Brexit etc etc ).

I think we should accept that whilst things haven't been great in the last couple of years, and are set to continue that way, we are still unbelievably bloody fortunate to be here. And if we ever need reminding of how lucky we are, we only need to watch the news to see what truly desperate people will do to get here, to this supposedly dreadful place. It's puts our grumbles into perspective.

And I'm not saying we're not allowed to moan. Of course we are. The fact that some people are suffering more, doesn't negate our suffering. But constantly saying that the UK is a total shithole and that the rest of the world is pitying and mocking us for our crapness , is just plain wrong.

MarshaBradyo · 19/12/2022 09:43

Ylvamoon · 19/12/2022 07:11

I think what is currently happening is a huge adjustment.

We had it reasonably good over the last few decades.

Cheap goods, cheap food cheap energy,... you name it we had it.
Consumerism is on its knees as economies can't supply the stuff cheply anymore. Reasons are the shortages of raw materials and other emerging economies wanting the same consumer goods as us. Add politics and war and here we are.

Generally we need to learn to consume less and be more self reliant as a country/ continent. This will take time, decades? Maybe, who knows.

We will adjust. Thinking of break throughs in energy production recently, cancer too, and malaria

Things are in flux atm but people have ingenuity and drive and we lurch ahead whilst being pulled in other direction. It’s uncertain but not all down hill.

helford · 19/12/2022 09:47

MintJulia · 19/12/2022 09:32

@helford "Net zero? seriously, how do you think we can afford to upgrade insulation or buy an EV ?"

Given that a record amount was spent on Black Friday, that holiday companies were flat out this summer, yes, people do have money to spend. Not everyone of course but some do. Look at how many people spent £200 on an air frier.

And B&Q was sold out of loft insulation at the weekend. People are taking sensible steps to help themselves.

I don't have money at the moment, but the soaring gas price has prompted me to get a quote for a GSHP. I can't afford it but I now know what I need and it's in the 10 year plan for when my gas boiler dies.

Of course there is probably 50% of the population who are completely unaffected by cost of living.

but that still leaves 10s of millions who are, there is also a big difference between spending on Black Friday or an Air fryer and buying an EV or switching to a GSHP.

Net zero wont happen, even if people could afford GSHPs and EVs, we don't have the generating capacity to run them.

Escarpahell · 19/12/2022 09:50

For all the posters who are comforting themselves with the trope that it's not the UK, the rest of the world is in the same situation, let me tell you about life in Portugal;

*There are no food shortages. None.
*You can see a GP face to face without an appointment, 6 days a week (yes, you have to wait in an orderly queue in the waiting room, but you will be seen).
*Private clinics carry out requested tests and examinations at a minimal cost - results are mailed to you and your doctor within a couple of days (tops).
*Ambulances arrive within minutes.
*The waiting time in my local hospital is generally measured in minutes, not hours.
*If you don't get treated by the state system within 6 months of a specialist referral you automatically get sent to a private hospital at no extra cost.

silentpool · 19/12/2022 09:51

We've had a few decades where things were cheap and plentiful and now they aren't. For those of us born in the 1970's, this is how we grew up - so in my mind it's a reversion to how it was.

MooseBreath · 19/12/2022 09:54

Things are bad globally at the moment. That said, the UK is significantly worse because of Brexit, 12 years of austerity, and a low-wage economy. The government is most definitely hiding behind the "global" aspect and isn't doing anything to make life better for citizens of the UK.

helford · 19/12/2022 09:55

@Sarahcoggles Fuckin hell, comparing ourselves to failed states like Afghanistan and Syria now!

Yes of course the UK is better, far better oh how lucky we are.

But lets compare our Health service to Germany, France or Italy shall we? comparable countries, without 7.2m waiting, without 48hr waits in AE and where ambulances turn up within minutes.

I'd like to think we aim for higher standards but obviously not.

bellac11 · 19/12/2022 09:55

We dont really manufacture anything any more which has left us very vulnerable

bellac11 · 19/12/2022 09:57

We're interested in Portugual seeing as how we cant move to Spain but research about Portgual shows its not all rosy there either

helford · 19/12/2022 09:59

Escarpahell · 19/12/2022 09:50

For all the posters who are comforting themselves with the trope that it's not the UK, the rest of the world is in the same situation, let me tell you about life in Portugal;

*There are no food shortages. None.
*You can see a GP face to face without an appointment, 6 days a week (yes, you have to wait in an orderly queue in the waiting room, but you will be seen).
*Private clinics carry out requested tests and examinations at a minimal cost - results are mailed to you and your doctor within a couple of days (tops).
*Ambulances arrive within minutes.
*The waiting time in my local hospital is generally measured in minutes, not hours.
*If you don't get treated by the state system within 6 months of a specialist referral you automatically get sent to a private hospital at no extra cost.

Yes my exp of France too.

UK Govt is hiding behind Covid, Ukraine.

We also do nothing about profiteering, why is fuel so much more in UK than Europe?
Super markets that have huge buying power, are charging the same or more than small family owned independents.

Popular food stuffs rocket in price yet less pop don't, costs of production have risen for both.

bellac11 · 19/12/2022 10:02

We have family in Spain who say prices have rocketed there and they have gripes about how the infrastructure doesnt work properly etc

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