To wonder why on earth people still buy from puppy farms?

[hennaoj]

Why oh why do people buy puppies from the likes of Kelly's Kennels and Douglas Hall Kennels?

This is where the poor puppies come from. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32308177
Surely people know that you need to see the puppies mother before buying? Never mind the fact that these puppies won't be dna health tested.

Thank you. Much appreciated.

@tabulahrasa You opened your post with the statement that people who are “into” dogs will only go for pedigrees. You literally could not be more wrong. I agree that these trendy mixed breed dogs (cavapoo/cocker poo, whatever) are an excellent way for shitty breeders to get round breeding rules and could have problems. And there is no such thing as a “hypoallergenic” dog. But those of us who are really, truly, “into” dogs, give not a shiny shite about “breed”. We take on dogs that need a home, irrespective of breed. And, we so often end up paying for the surgery/treatment that dog needs, because the original “owner” didn’t do their research/couldn’t afford it/ didn’t care. I have, and always have had, a house full of dogs. Almost 40 dogs in 20+ years. I don’t regret it for one single minute and they give me back a thousand times what I could ever give them. My entire social circle is the same. You name the breed and we’ve had one, or a cross. All rescue and all needing a home after some irresponsible asshat wouldn’t or couldn’t give them what they need. I would suggest you spend some time in dog rescue….it will be eye opening for you.

On top of all the other reasons...

Because it is FAR far easier to find a puppy farm that looks clean, makes the process simple, no hurdles to jump through etc..

Than it is to find a reputable, quality breeder, who will make people jump through hoops of fire.

If you don't even know what you're looking for, it is easy to go for the first most obvious option and a clean commercial kennels with several breeds to choose from SEEMS reasonable to most people buying their first or even subsequent dog.

Maybe they dont know how to source a breeder, also a breeder will be more expensive

@Buildingthefuture

“You opened your post with the statement that people who are “into” dogs will only go for pedigrees.”

I didn’t, I said they’re anti crossbreed because they’re anti bad breeding, not because they’re pro pedigree.

I own a mongrel btw, literally no clue what he is as the rescue never saw either parent and every puppy in the litter grew up to look slightly different.

There is though absolutely a place for ethical breeders, it’s just that unfortunately they’re pretty rare and they really aren't breeding crosses.

One of the worst cross breeds I saw was a Rottweiler and chihuahua mix - WTF thinks that’s a good idea? Poor blooming dogs.

Other pp have got it right - the sentiment is so often “I want a dog, so shall get one however I can”. So few people seem to research breed traits, requirements, etc.

Lots of people seem to think that small dogs are easy. They often require more work/input/training/exercise than large/giant dogs.

I didn’t really mean to start a debate about whether crossbreeds are healthier or not, maybe I’m right about that and maybe I’m wrong.

The main thing I think, as far as the OP goes, is that if you want a labradoodle or a cavapoo or whatever, as many many kind and responsible prospective dog owners do, it’s extremely difficult to know which breeders are ethical, you really just have word of mouth and your own judgement to go by.

The way to improve health is to carefully breed healthy functional dogs that have passed health tests, something that is very very rare with people breeding crosses.

I’m sceptical of this. I remember several decades ago, only wealthy people had pure breeds, the vast majority of people had ‘bitzers’. It was rare for most towns to have a vet, only in larger centres, and a lot of people wouldn’t have been able to afford vets anyway, so most dogs didn’t have vet treatment yet the vast majority lived to 15yo on average without any health issues at all. After that they slowed down, might have started limping a bit with arthritis, started sleeping most of the day in a warm spot and then peacefully shuffled off the earth one day.

This was when dogs were treated like dogs not children(good), but fenced yards were rare (bad) and lack of vet availability meant desexing was not routine (bad). This meant some dogs became victims of cars, especially if they were car chasers, or snake bites if they were fond of annoying snakes in the bush, and there was the odd dog fight here and there and someone in the neighbourhood generally had puppies.

Even with all of that most of the dogs lived extremely long lives by todays standard, without any health issues, didn’t bark their heads off all day but just got on with important job of trying to get marrow out of bones (you got your free marrow bones a few times a week when you got your meat from the butcher), didn’t have the nervous/anxious dispositions most dogs have these days and were happy with a frisbee they’d nicked off the kids and an old slipper as their toys rather than 1001 specialty dog toys.

I’d definitely prefer one of these beauties, seemingly made up of god knows how many breeds versus a pure breed.

The original mongrels of our even just 20 years ago are pretty much no more.

They had a HUGE genepool behind them, those that were unhealthy, lame, poor in temperament did not last long.

So those that DID reproduce were in some respects inadvertently selected for health.

They are in NO way comparable to the vast majority of 'designer crossbreeds'...

If you take two breeds that both come from tiny genepools, and many share some of the same genetic conditions (as many of the poo x other small breed mixes will do)... then you do not get a healthy crossbreed. You get an unhealthy one, with owners who are of the mistaken belief their dog will be healthier than a pedigree from impeccable breeding and healthy lines.

Add in the epigenetics - horrible conditions for the parents, particularly the mothers, the early weeks experiences (or lack of) and those puppies are a furry little timebomb of physical and behavioural issues.

And if you're happy with the risk of that, then get a rescue, because these days 9 x out of 10, that rescue puppy came from a designer dog puppy farm in the first place.

“I’m sceptical of this. I remember several decades ago, only wealthy people had pure breeds, the vast majority of people had ‘bitzers’. “

in fairness I didn’t mean as opposed to that, but it used to be that you either got a dog from an actual farmer or because dogs were just doing what dogs do... but, I don’t think stopping neutering and putting down dogs instead of treating them like people used to is the way to go tbh.

So you’re left with people breeding on purpose, if you’re doing that, then you should be doing it responsibly. People breeding crosses are still breeding 2 pedigree dogs, it doesn’t magically fix all health issues present in the parents.

Because rescues make it near on impossible to adopt a dog from them!

Because rescues make it near on impossible to adopt a dog from them!

Untrue.
The rescue home where we help out rehomed nine dogs last weekend and a similar amount at the previous event. They have to do checks to make sure they are rehoming dogs responsibly.
Like I said earlier this kind of statement is only helping the puppy farmers.
If people are inspected by a rescue home and deemed unfit to have a dog then they have to accept that not go oh well I'll have to get one from a puppy farm then! That's entitled and thick. Under no circumstances should anyone ever buy from these places.

I did not know that!

I haven't bought a dog myself, but I imagine puppy farms don't advertise as such and lots of people get scammed every single day.

@Zipps its absolutely true! And in calling people thick you are revealing the attitude of lots of rescues and exactly why people avoid them and go to puppy farms! With judgemental, arrogant attitudes like yours you really won't get people to listen to what you're saying! Ive owned both rescue and pedigree dogs ( from reputable breeders not puppy farms) im an experienced dog owner with plenty of time and land and I would struggle to get a rescue now days!

We rehomed one dog through a breeder we knew through our dog training circles. He was one of her dogs that had come back to her because the lady had to become a carer for their very sick mother and she felt she was neglecting the dog and as it was young she wanted to give it the home it deserved. (the contract on purchasing the dog was that the dog was to be returned to the breeder if a change in their circumstances meant they had to give up the dog), she adopted it to us because she knew we would give it a stable, loving and suitable home for the rest of it’s life.

The dog came to us at 3 years old that then lived until it was 18. All her dogs are very very healthy and long lived (she bred pharaoh hounds, Italian greyhounds, whippets and full sized whippets). Greyhounds of any size why seemingly delicate looking are incredibly healthy and long lived looked after properly. So the line that pedigrees aren’t healthy a pp made is rubbish, buyers/adopters need to do their research and get a dog that’s healthy breed and suitable for their lifestyle and experience rather than trendy like your brachycephalic breeds for example.

The breeder I mentioned earlier only bred a litter every second or third year, from different bitches. She was incredibly strict about vetting new owners, she would have every family member living in the dogs home come visit the dog, to see that interacted with the dog well, eg gentle and correctly handling them. Every dog had to go to the same trainer (she was super strict) to ensure that the dogs were properly socialised and had good manners which again means the dog if well trained would be a well adjusted dog and safer as dogs that can safely heel off lead, respect thresholds are less likely to get lost, run over or bitten by other dogs , and also because the trainer could keep an eye on dog for the breeder to make sure that as the dog matured it was being properly cared for.

She had a huge waiting list so the strictness didn’t put people off, she was available 24/7 for owners to contact if they had any issues, she’d also often board her dogs back for free in family emergencies. that’s the difference between a shit puppy farm and a proper breeder, they care about the dogs they breed for life.

the whiners on here saying that too many rescues and breeders are too strict are fancy and exclusive are idiots, if you are vetted and fail to adopt or buy, you really aren’t suitable to own a dog. Which is fairly bloody obvious when you are at the park and see so many spaniel cross breeds that are badly trained, badly groomed (matted fur) or have dogs that are too advanced for inexperienced first time owners.

The diligence of good breeders and rescues is to protect the dog, and having pretty much only owned rescues or rehomed dogs, I’ve had to clean up the pieces for dogs that have so many mental health and physical issues from crap owners. These owners often think they have ‘tried their best’ and the dogs issues are inherent, but actually it’s crap ownership leading to nervous, stressed and unhealthy dogs that they dump back onto rescues. (Who to avoid this happening again, vet the owners to avoid this happening again).

Gazing around my local park (in a posh area, we just rent a cheapish small flat in a nice area we couldn’t afford to live in otherwise) I would say a good 85 % of the dogs I see are owned by unsuitable people.

I wish it were so easy to say 'if you're failed by a rescue and refused an adoption you're not fit to own a dog'...

Unfortunately whilst there are a great many decent rescues out there who take each adopter and potential dog on a case by case basis.. there are also terrible ones:

Refusing an adoption for a working breed best suited to active outdoor life, to a home on a livery yard because the owner once bred from her horse (and 12 years later still has both mare and offspring)

Refusing to rehome a small breed, non-athletic dog to a home because their fencing isn't 6ft all round (it was secure, but 5ft in some places.)

Refusing adoption of a neutered male because the home had an entire juvenile bitch (too young to spay).

When rescues have silly reasons like this, and behave as if they're doing potential owners a huge favour in permitting them to adopt, they DO put people off and drive people to seek other sources and since these same rescues will almost certainly refuse to explain to people how to ethically source a well bred, carefully raised healthy puppy.... its no surprise many people find the well advertised commercial breeders.

@WiddlinDiddlin - I cannot comment on the first case you describe, but maybe there were additional concerns?

Your 2nd and 3rd examples are entirely valid in my view. The fence could have been raised, and the owners of the bitch could have waited until she had been fixed.

In my experience as a cat adoption volunteer, rescues usually try to work with potential adopters to help them make the home suitable and/or find an animal that would be suitable for that home.

No it necessarily isn't. I hate to say it but my rescue dog is a nightmare. He has multiple issues that I was not told about and realistically he should never, ever have been rehomed to someone with a child. I jumped through hoops to get him. We were reassured of what he is like, and he just isn't. He has deep seeded issues, that just won't ever get better.

Thankfully, he isn't a danger to my child but he is a danger to all of my DS's friends as he's over protective of him, which means that we're very limited in terms of letting him have friends over to play. He has major dog aggression that we absolutely can't train out of him. I have tried absolutely everything with him but the problem is, while he's happy to be friends with a dog after he's attacked it three times, every new dog is automatically an enemy. He doesn't learn from socialisation because no matter how many dog friends he makes, his aggression towards strange dogs never abates. He is increasingly aggressive with people. He's a lovely dog in lots of ways but there is no way in hell I'd have chosen him if I'd known what he was like.

I have had multiple dogs before that I've raised from puppy and never had issues with them. But to be quite honest, living with this dog is frequently soul destroying. I also previously rehomed a dog in adolescence due to him being too active for the people who initially bought him, and while he had a beautiful temperament he ultimately cost about six grand in ongoing vets bills for issues that were due to his bad start in life. And I'm not the only person I know with serious issues with their rescue dog. Some people I know have had great experiences with one rescue and were then blindsided by how difficult a subsequent one is. So many people I know have outright said they are incredibly unlikely to rescue again. I know I am incredibly wary about ever doing it again.

@FlowerArranger

Case 1 was all going ahead, pulled on the day they were meant to collect after someone mentioned the horses - no other factors at all.

Case 2 weren't permitted to raise that fence due to some ridiculous home owner restrictions, which is why the adopter sought a specific dog that would not need such high fencing. Dog sat in rescue for a long time as they had health issues few were willing to take on.

Case 3 - rescue were absolutely vile, the bitch was too young and rescue wouldn't wait, dog was very specifically suitable and again not an easy one to find a home for. He again, sat in rescue for a number of years before quietly vanishing off their website/discussions... I doubt he was rehomed.

Much more recently (I haven't worked that closely with rescues in the last 5 or 6 years now)... excellent and well respected clinical behaviourist turned down for very needy specialist home requiring giant breed. Reason cited, fencing height, however strangely this hadn't been an issue throughout the process, it became an issue when the rescue owner discovered how well known and respected the CB'st was and suddenly it was a flat no, total rudery and frankly vile behaviour from the rescue...

Who then did a total about turn and swore up and down it was an error, once public pressure was applied (other dog professionals absolutely horrified and baffled).

Dog is happily in that home but only because a lot of folk weighed in, and because the adopter is experienced and confident.

Plenty of people ARE turned down for absolutely valid reasons, but unfortunately when bad rescues behave badly, they forget that the general dog owning public just lumps all 'rescue' together and doesn't grasp that one independent rescue is NOT remotely like another.

It also tends to be the case that such refusals are done in an upsetting and off hand, rude manner (or worse) and this obviously puts people off putting themselves up for such an emotional rollercoaster again.

These rescue experiences are interesting. I've seen similar and have often wondered why rescues don't just accept that there aren't enough perfect homes for every dog needing one but that a nearly perfect homes is good enough for them to have a far happier life than in the rescue.

bloody planes Have you been to any rescue homes lately though? Or are you just being lazy and repeating what others had said?
You have had dogs "in the past" so probably not recently and by just idly copying others you are perpetuating the old 'rescue homes are too fussy'. Without a care for the reality. Rescue homes have to be responsible to the dogs. Have you even tried to get a dog lately? If not you have no first hand experience to be drawing from.
You're just putting off people bothering to investigate rescue homes for no good reason.

Having fostered dogs all my life (my parents fostered too), it’s because taking that chance on imperfect homes, means a percentage come back which completely fucks up the dog and people like me or my family then have to come in and try our absolute best to build back trust and retrain them so another that we can adopt them on to another family.

Dogs that have been rehomed more than once are often really messed up.

Tough tits, the dogs needs come first.

Why should rescues lower their standard? Their focus is on dog welfare. They are dog experts and know what situations make for happy dogs who are less likely to be returned again.
we should race to the bottom because puppy farms are threatened as an alternative.

people who aren’t suitable to rescue don’t get to sulk and declare they had no choice but to go to a farm. That’s ridiculous and shows they weren’t suitable to own a dog in the first place.

@Thedoglovesmemore yes!!! This in spades

The sad thing is, I don’t think attitudes are ever going to change. Far too many people will completely ignore all reasoning because “I want …”

It’s so bloody depressing.