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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Title edited by MNHQ at request of OP - Advice pls on labour exploitation law (a minor not being paid at work).

186 replies

Hedgehogscanclimbtrees · 14/12/2022 19:24

This summer after GSCEs my son made a CV and went round our town's local cafes and restaurants asking for work. He was 16 at the time (17 now) and most places said no, he was too young. One place took him on, £5 per hour, mostly kitchen help, washing dishes, helping wherever help is needed, some waiting on tables. He has loved doing this, and he likes the boss ("he's like a friend") and the other members of staff. He has been putting in the hours at weekends and holidays, sometimes doing 10 hour shifts! To be clear this is something he has wanted to do and it helps his self-esteem. We have also kept an eye that his schoolwork does not suffer.
However I have found out that the boss is not paying his staff because of cashflow problems! Apparently payday was always "oh next week" etc. then it came out that the owner is opening another restaurant, so didn't have the cash to pay his (young) staff! My son has been paid some, but we added up his hours and he is owed over £1,000! My husband and I are tempted to go to the restaurant to (politely) tell the owner that he cannot withold our son's earnings but son (understandably) doesn't want us to wade in on his behalf. However he is in a vulnerable position, having been working cash in hand. And being so young (he has tried asking for his wages and keeps getting fobbed off). We told him to say that he cannot continue to work if he is not being paid but now they have simply removed him from the Whatsap group where the rotas were sent out. He went in today to ask why he'd been removed and it seems several people have been removed, apparently because the owner is trying to catch up on his debts to everyone by not rota-ing them... I asked who is serving then and my son didn't know, but he did reveal that Sundays have apparently been busy because sometimes it was just my son and the owner who was juggling cooking and front of house!
I have to say I think any business owner who does not pay his staff is probably going under. What recourse does my son have? Are there laws to protect people like him (and the other young people who have also not been paid)?
I would love to hear from any employment lawyers on here, or re 'Modern Slavery' laws!

OP posts:
Naunet · 15/12/2022 10:18

paintitallover · 15/12/2022 10:15

@Naunet Not all modern slaves are in the sex trade. Many are in takeaways, small shops, businesses and some still in agriculture.

Yes I’m aware of that, I was using the sex trade as an example, I didn’t say it was the only form.

cupofdecaf · 15/12/2022 10:34

Report it to HMRC. He should be being paid the minimum wage and he's not (with holding wages like that counts).

EndlessRain1 · 15/12/2022 10:36

Not read the full thread, but wow op your post is so offensive to people who have genuinely experiened modern slavery. That deserves a 🙄

That said your son has been exploited and you should seek help from an employment solicitor, out of principle if nothing else!

KarmaStar · 15/12/2022 10:40

Your title is going to be offensive and upsetting for many people.
How you've allowed such a young man to work so many hours and not notice he has no money is ...questionable.
Tell them straight that they must pay up or you will take legal action.
I would be informing the relevant authorities also.

Gildedbrooks · 15/12/2022 11:03

The title isn't offensive at all. The OP asks "Is my son a modern day slave?"

Which would seem to mean she doesn't know if he would count as one or not, hence the question.

People being deliberately obtuse and triggered on MN honestly do my head in.

And yes google is free blah blah whatever.

KettrickenSmiled · 15/12/2022 11:27

Gildedbrooks · 15/12/2022 11:03

The title isn't offensive at all. The OP asks "Is my son a modern day slave?"

Which would seem to mean she doesn't know if he would count as one or not, hence the question.

People being deliberately obtuse and triggered on MN honestly do my head in.

And yes google is free blah blah whatever.

Well you're clearly not "triggered", so that's nice dear.

Not sure you can claim the same for "obtuse".

Gildedbrooks · 15/12/2022 11:30

KettrickenSmiled · 15/12/2022 11:27

Well you're clearly not "triggered", so that's nice dear.

Not sure you can claim the same for "obtuse".

🙄

Ahsoka2001 · 15/12/2022 12:13

LikeTearsInRain · 14/12/2022 22:36

No but your son and you as his parents who have facilitated this are willing tax evaders. You should report yourselves.

If he's under 18 he probably doesn't do enough hours to warrant paying tax.

Volhhg · 15/12/2022 13:10

Ahsoka2001 · 15/12/2022 12:13

If he's under 18 he probably doesn't do enough hours to warrant paying tax.

And anyway the ops Son is the employee not the employer. It's up to the Employer to pay through PAYE and provide a pay slip and take national insurance contributions. He is not self employed so cannot do a self assessment. Nothing wrong with cash payment if employer declares it and since he is the employee he can say he is awaiting his payslip

OriginalUsername2 · 15/12/2022 13:13

alwaysmovingforwards · 14/12/2022 19:36

Personally I'd 'build a relationship' with the boss.
Just drop in and order something, let him know you're DS parents, ask how he's getting on.
Good at the job?
Are you happy with him?
All ok with wages etc?
Let's swap numbers in case of an emergency...

Basically politely let the owner know that your DS isn't alone and that you're now on the scene and you've now got a direct line.

I think this is your best bet.

Sp0rk · 15/12/2022 13:23

www.gov.uk/part-time-worker-rights

His employer should not have taken someone on as "cash in hand"

His employer should have gone through PAYE, which includes National Insurance contributions, sick pay, holiday pay

Snazzysausage · 15/12/2022 13:26

If after requesting wages owed it's clear he's not going to pay willingly, I would happily stand outside with a sign saying he owes £1000 in unpaid wages to my son,shame him, hopefully a local paper does an article which nudges him into paying. It's not illegal to stand peacefully outside. Your son has been exploited by this business owner and I wouldn't hesitate if all else fails.

SD1978 · 15/12/2022 13:29

He's being getting paid (or not) off the books- with no proof of hours, tax, etc will be a hard one to follow up.

csigeek · 15/12/2022 18:31

I would speak to ACAS as this is 100% illegal and a breach of NMW.

i suspect the employer doesn’t pay through a proper payroll to avoid tax and NI and any pension liability. Does your son even have a contract?

prh47bridge · 15/12/2022 18:31

SD1978 · 15/12/2022 13:29

He's being getting paid (or not) off the books- with no proof of hours, tax, etc will be a hard one to follow up.

It really won't. As I've explained up thread, if he takes this to tribunal it will be a straightforward win.

2bazookas · 15/12/2022 18:35

I doubt your son will ever get paid; sounds like the owner is going bust

The business is on its knees . I'd call Environmental health and put it out of its misery.

EsmeSusanOgg · 15/12/2022 18:39

You can report failure to pay minimum wage here - www.gov.uk/government/publications/pay-and-work-rights-complaints

Also worth calling Acas for advice.

MrsPinkCock · 15/12/2022 18:42

Whilst most of what you’ve said is correct, I actually disagree with you @prh47bridge when you say it would be a straightforward win.

OP, your son could potentially claim for unlawful deductions from wages, failure to provide a s1 statement of particulars (an employment contract), and failing to provide wage slips.

However, the difficulty with cash in hand work is whilst he CAN potentially demonstrate that a contract exists as stated upthread (because it is automatically implied), the problem he could face is that the contract in question could be illegal (cash in hand to avoid tax/NI payments) which means he would lose any statutory right to sue under it. The law requires you to have clean hands, so it will boil down to whether he knowingly/willingly entered into an illegal contract (assuming that it is indeed illegal and that the employer didn’t pay tax/NI if relevant).

If the contract isnt illegal then as @prh47bridge correctly says, I don’t think he will find it difficult to demonstrate that a contract exists.

If he has kept the rotas on WhatsApp, he should be able to demonstrate his hours worked - but without that, he’s effectively asking the employment tribunal to guess what he is owed, which they won’t be willing to do.

He should raise a formal grievance about his unpaid wages in the first instance and follow that procedure, although he might be able to get round that point.

Then there’s the added problem that even if he won, he’d probably never see the money if the company simply doesn’t have it. They will go bust and he will become just another unsecured creditor receiving pennies.

But yes, it’s theoretically possible to sue for lost wages and no, he wouldn’t meet the definition of a modern slave.

qtpa2t · 15/12/2022 19:08

Sounds like you didn't advise him to be more careful about getting a proper contract, and no, he's getting taken advantage of. Please look up the definition of slavery, which to this day is an actual issue

prh47bridge · 15/12/2022 20:04

@MrsPinkCock At £5 per hour he would have to be working over 48 hours a week before he needed to pay tax or NI. At his age, I suspect the tribunal wouldn't expect him to think about whether the employer was avoiding NI by paying cash in hand. My son was also being paid cash in hand (or would have been if they had ever paid anything) and he tells me the tribunal in his case didn't appear to consider whether the contract was illegal. However, I agree that there is a possibility that the tribunal would hold that OP's son does not have clean hands.

icelolly99 · 15/12/2022 20:21

Had a similar situation with my child. Went to ACAS for advice and raised an official tribunal case through the gov website.

rosemarysalter · 15/12/2022 20:59

Write a letter stating what they owe and threaten small claims court

See what that throws up

rosemarysalter · 15/12/2022 20:59

A threat of some bad press may help
Too

pinkpantherpink · 15/12/2022 21:40

Hedgehogscanclimbtrees · 14/12/2022 19:24

This summer after GSCEs my son made a CV and went round our town's local cafes and restaurants asking for work. He was 16 at the time (17 now) and most places said no, he was too young. One place took him on, £5 per hour, mostly kitchen help, washing dishes, helping wherever help is needed, some waiting on tables. He has loved doing this, and he likes the boss ("he's like a friend") and the other members of staff. He has been putting in the hours at weekends and holidays, sometimes doing 10 hour shifts! To be clear this is something he has wanted to do and it helps his self-esteem. We have also kept an eye that his schoolwork does not suffer.
However I have found out that the boss is not paying his staff because of cashflow problems! Apparently payday was always "oh next week" etc. then it came out that the owner is opening another restaurant, so didn't have the cash to pay his (young) staff! My son has been paid some, but we added up his hours and he is owed over £1,000! My husband and I are tempted to go to the restaurant to (politely) tell the owner that he cannot withold our son's earnings but son (understandably) doesn't want us to wade in on his behalf. However he is in a vulnerable position, having been working cash in hand. And being so young (he has tried asking for his wages and keeps getting fobbed off). We told him to say that he cannot continue to work if he is not being paid but now they have simply removed him from the Whatsap group where the rotas were sent out. He went in today to ask why he'd been removed and it seems several people have been removed, apparently because the owner is trying to catch up on his debts to everyone by not rota-ing them... I asked who is serving then and my son didn't know, but he did reveal that Sundays have apparently been busy because sometimes it was just my son and the owner who was juggling cooking and front of house!
I have to say I think any business owner who does not pay his staff is probably going under. What recourse does my son have? Are there laws to protect people like him (and the other young people who have also not been paid)?
I would love to hear from any employment lawyers on here, or re 'Modern Slavery' laws!

Pay rate is legal. Speak to ACAS and report to HMRC

National Minimum Wage and National Living Wage rates - GOV.UK www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

Pay and work rights helpline and complaints - GOV.UK www.gov.uk/pay-and-work-rights

It is his employer that has not been operating paye. That he is being cash is not a crime. Once you get advice from ACAS advise HMRC that £ receivedbut employer has declined to provide payslip etc.

. He needs to leave this job. He owes them nothing.

chocolatecupcake · 15/12/2022 23:01

Modern Slave.... ffs. I work with actual victims of modern slavery and they'd be willing to trade places with your son in a heartbeat. How pig ignorant.