To think controlled crying is cruel

[KazMa]

DH would like to try controlled crying/sleep training but I am totally against any sort of crying/leaving DS on his own upset. Any advice?

Here is current scenario:

DS just turned 7 months old and we have been co sleeping since the dreaded 4 month sleep regression, he also breastfeeds to sleep - will go to sleep without it but needs a lot of patting, rocking and walking around so it’s easier just to BF.

For a month now I am able to BF to sleep and then leave him in his cot in his own room for nap times and he will sleep 45mins to an hour per nap (3x per day).

At night however he will wake up and only go back to sleep if he is laying & feeding next to me in my bed. (Eg, bedtime at 8pm but he’ll wake at 8:45 and won’t go back to sleep.

I couldnt do it with my children but I was left to cry it out from 3 weeks old(my mum had no family involvement and that was what the health advisor told her to do so she did it) I don't have any abandonment or attachment issues and have a very close relationship with my mum.

It doesn't teach them how to not wake up (I've never heard a plausible suggestion for what the mechanism would be there, how they learn to sleep longer periods just by being left). It trains them not to bother calling out when they wake up, because they know you won't come. If that's what you have to do for your own mental health/sanity/whatever then do it, but at least be honest about what it is.
It shouldn't be "I sleep trained, it was great!" It should be "I was in such a dire situation that I had to train my baby not to call out for me anymore, and that's very unfortunate but I had to do it".

It shouldn't be "I sleep trained, it was great!" It should be "I was in such a dire situation that I had to train my baby not to call out for me anymore, and that's very unfortunate but I had to do it".

I've not seen anyone argue otherwise. We can probably take it as read we all wish our babies were great sleepers from the get-go.

Adults still wake up during the night. Most of the time we don't remember and go straight back to sleep.

Agree with all you've said. I said in my first comment here OP isn't BU to think it's cruel, she can hold whatever opinion she wishes and make decisions for her own children as she sees fit. I know most kids will get there eventually but the issue is whether someone is capable of withstanding so much suffering in the meantime until they get there. People with health to think about, jobs to do, other responsibilities to meet, can't necessarily cope with seriously broken sleep for years on end until the child 'gets there', when there's a simple effective solution for improving sleep here and now.

I don't think people with a bad sleeper need or deserve criticism, but it's also pretty typical for people to want to offer advice they think will help. Most parents are just doing their best to cope and doing what they think is best. Some will openly acknowledge they just can't handle the idea of sleep training and that that's on them even though it could help.

I think everyone has bias depending on how it went for them. I know some families who tried it, gave up after half an hour and are convinced sleep training just doesn't work! So, confirmation bias in the opposite direction. That's just human nature. I do think some people who ST or are pro-ST get a bit sick of being criticised and told they're monsters for ST despite the evidence, and turn it around to highlight that you could equally call someone cruel for allowing their child to have terrible sleep for months/years on end without doing something about it. I don't agree, but I understand it.

People wish they had good sleepers and didn't have to bother with any methods yes. But in my experience people who successfully sleep trained are really positive about it and talk about how great it was for themselves and their baby, how they learned to sleep etc. They believe the child learned how to sleep. But it's not that, it's learning not to bother calling out.

It was a really positive thing for us. Do we wish we'd had a decent sleeper naturally? Of course. But we play the hands we're dealt, and I will be forever thankful that we had access to a safe effective method to help my child learn to fall asleep without assistance (so he could do so in the night when he woke) and sleep longer stretches.

It's like you want people who sleep trained to hang their heads in shame and self-flagellate or something. Do you find it difficult to acknowledge that for some people it's a really positive choice they're glad they made?

Well, they did it so aren't going to talk about how awful it might have been are they? They are going to look at the positive. Confirmation bias.

I had a friend who sleep trained her son. He worked, ,till he teethed/ got sick/ whatever. Then they had to repeat it. About every 4 months. I saw them one day and he had a big bruise on his head from headbutting the cot in anger as part of this sleep training. She will still say sleeping training was great. It didn't really look great to me at the time but perhaps I was just seeing the negatives.

It is learning how to sleep. I have seen my baby wake up for a few seconds and go back to sleep rather than cry.
You are giving the impression babies are lying in their crib for ages alone and not crying.

I imagine they're positive because they're finally getting some real sleep. No shame in that.

When you've slept for minutes at a time for six months, being able to finally get some decent sleep genuinely is a cause for celebration/something to feel positive about. I'd say that's the same for a lot of things. I've known parents say they'd give their life savings away if only they could get back to regular, lengthy sleep. They're on the absolute bones of their arse with tiredness, even to the point of being unable to enjoy their baby and regretting becoming a parent.

Nobody has to sleep train if they don't want to, but it's great news it's becoming more understood and popular and the odd stigma against it is being broken down. Everyone deserves to get good quality restful sleep, even parents and babies.

It's positive for that person's own life because they're sleeping better. You don't know what went on in that baby's head, how they felt at the time, how they feel when they wake up now. You don't know how often they wake up but don't call out.
Given that a baby is not physically able to self soothe (everybody knows this, babies and toddlers and small children are not able to just calm themselves down from a place of distress) how exactly do they learn to sleep when they are sleep trained? What learning goes on?
We know that children learn not to call out when they know nobody will come. That's established fact so way more likely what is going on here.
Self flagellate? Not exactly but it should be something you only do as a last resort because you can't cope and have no support.

Not exactly but it should be something you only do as a last resort because you can't cope and have no support.

I suspect it usually is. So I'm glad that has your seal of approval.

It might be good for you, it wasn't good for the baby. If your life was this bad before you sleep trained then maybe you needed to do it. Like a "necessary evil" (not literally evil but I can't think of a better turn of phrase).

Babies learn to put themselves back to sleep rather than rely on external soothing. They don’t lie there in distress silently! So no, once the ‘training’ has been done (which is indeed a couple of distressing nights), they are not distressed. Research: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4459553/#!po=43.5484

It might be good for you, it wasn't good for the baby

Pure, unevidenced conjecture.

It was good for my baby. It meant I could drive safely and not fall asleep and drop him on the sofa. Much much safer for my baby.
I did with my DD as well so she was never exposed to the risks my poor DS was exposed to.

That study is nothing to do with sleep training.

@NewmummyJ

Gosh! I think that your post is so blinkered. And I am appalled that you work in MH

Firstly, this generation's mental health issues is nothing to do with controlled crying. Our grandmothers did quite a lot of leaving their kids to cry. Often in the garden to "exercise their lungs"- my own grandmothers did far more of it than I ever did (I did a bit of controlled crying / patting / returning /soothing without picking up). In fact, studies have shown that the average modern parent spends more time playing with and soothing their kids than 2 generations ago - because housework is less onerous and people have fewer kids. And parenting standards have changed for the better. However, what has been proven in studies is that helicoptering your kids, never letting them learn stuff for themselves and screens over outdoor activity is definitely damaging - this is far more likely to be the cause of poor MH.

Secondly, if (as you seem to) you like anecdotal evidence, I as first born wasn't sleep trained at all, cosleeping and bf all the way - anorexia and a deeply difficult relationship with my parents. Sister was sleep trained and left to cry it out - much happier and better relationship. I don't think sleep training caused this (though I do think that my mum's helicoptering of me did have something to do with my unhappy teens) any more than I think that if it had been the other way around it would have been caused by sleep training.

I think not doing controlled crying is insanely cruel, based on my experiences with my children.

My wife decided to go down attachment parenting with our daughter. DD wouldn't go to sleep at night without her mum there, she would wake up and scream in the night until her mum came through and slept with her, which ended up being every night. If my wife didn't respond immediately, DD would scream and shout and become so distressed.

About 18 months, DW wanted to go out in the evenings. Initially I responded to DD in the same way, but after a while decided this wasn't healthy and decided to try controlled crying. DW went away for three nights, and I did controlled crying with DD.

It was hell, incredibly distressing for me and DD.

Then on the third night, DD went to bed and peacefully went to sleep.

When DW came back, she wasn't happy with me and continued with the attachment parenting. The difference between when she was there and when she was out for the evening was stark. When she was out, I could put DD to bed and she would go to sleep completely contented. She would sleep through and get a good nights sleep. She knew there was no point crying and screaming and getting herself wound up.

When DW was in the house, bedtimes continued to be a nightmare, with DD crying, screaming unless DW lay beside her. She would wake in the middle of the night knowing that if she screamed DW would would come and sleep next to her.

Controlled crying is hard, really hard and DW wasn't able to let DD cry at all. But having seen how it can transform a distressed child to a contented child, I think it is cruel to not try it.

When I sleep trained my twins we were living in what was essentially a studio flat and my husband and I were both working shifts and keeping funny hours. This meant that for much of the night there would be someone awake in the same room with sleeping DC (trying to do whatever they were doing very quietly). At various points throughout the night, one of them would shift around, blearily open her eyes for a few seconds, make some smacking noises and go back to sleep. All in a matter of seconds. And these were who, prior to "sleep training", would sleep for about 90 minute stretches at most, then wake up and cry for God knows how long.

It's what we all do. We wake up several times throughout the night, usually go straight back to sleep and don't even remember it come morning. I can't speak for my younger DC , but those two weren't lying there in silent throws of despair and abandonment. They just went back to sleep.

(That first sentence should say "After I sleep trained", sorry).

Why did you sleep train them if you were there awake with them the whole time and available? And how do you know when they're asleep or when they just have their eyes closed?

The line that sleep training ‘just teaches babies not to cry out’ is utter bollocks. We did gentle sleep training when DD was 7 months old as the alternative would have been me cracking up completely due to sleep deprivation. It worked within days. She’s now 7 and still calls for us in the night if she needs us, so the idea that she was somehow trained never to call out in the night is nonsense. Sleep training saved my sanity and allowed me to properly bond with DD - I have zero regrets.

She learned her mum is the only one who responds to her, and that you don't. You think that's a good thing?