To think controlled crying is cruel

[KazMa]

DH would like to try controlled crying/sleep training but I am totally against any sort of crying/leaving DS on his own upset. Any advice?

Here is current scenario:

DS just turned 7 months old and we have been co sleeping since the dreaded 4 month sleep regression, he also breastfeeds to sleep - will go to sleep without it but needs a lot of patting, rocking and walking around so it’s easier just to BF.

For a month now I am able to BF to sleep and then leave him in his cot in his own room for nap times and he will sleep 45mins to an hour per nap (3x per day).

At night however he will wake up and only go back to sleep if he is laying & feeding next to me in my bed. (Eg, bedtime at 8pm but he’ll wake at 8:45 and won’t go back to sleep.

If your child is upset and Co sleeping works for you then do it.
If CC means 4 hours of screaming don't do it.
If settlingvthem a couple of times works do that.

It didn't work for me as I said before I was used as a trampoling all night.
What I'm describing is that stage where they don't want to sleep but they end up super tired.
Hours of no sleep for everyone?
No thanks
They cry but then don't really want to be held, cuddled but shriek with laughter and poke your eyes out.
So back to bed it is!
Sorry not remotely sorry

I WISH I was sleep trained as a child. My mum was against it with me, her oldest, and would sing me to sleep whenever I woke up. She said it was hell for years. Eventually I switched to listen to a story tape to get to sleep but I remember being so worried about staying at friends houses or going in school trips because I found it so so hard to get to sleep without the story tape on. I’d lie awake for hours. As a teenager it moved on to having a tv on quietely, and now, at the age of 30 and pregnant myself, I have to listen to a podcast every night to get to sleep. If I wake up in the night I either have to lie for hours trying to get to sleep or put the podcast on again. It’s like my body does not know how to get to sleep without external stimuli.

My mum changed her mind after me and sleep trained my siblings. They sleep great.

Yuo can teach good sleep habits without CC/ sleep training @AliceinSlumberland :

The first night taking 4 hours does not mean leaving them to cry for 4 hours. It means going back in, patting, leaving, then repeat,

@EndlessRain1 But most parents do not seem to do so.

@antelopevalley yep - 2 kids

Would love to hear more about these methods, if you’re happy to share.

You reckon? I think most probably do. Based on my anecdotal experience. Most people I know havent' sleep trained, but do have good bedtime routines, sleep hygiene, etc for their kids

@EndlessRain1 Do you just mean the bath and book before bedtime?

My OH can't fall asleep without watching something on his ipad thanks to poor sleep habits instilled in childhood with a TV in his bedroom (which is why I will never allow TVs in the bedrooms). My DD was reliant on audiobooks for a long time and takes hours to fall asleep (better now I let her stay up later but she still has to catch up on her sleep at the weekends) but at least she doesn't need external stimuli any more thankfully. Not fun having long term sleep issues is it :(

@antelopevalley yes that but not just that. But gently trying to encourage good sleep routines and associations. All the usual stuff, consistent routine, no screens, low light/ low stimulation before bedtime, sleep queues (e.g. song), gently reducing or removing sleep crutches (like BFing to sleep or rocking), not rushing to baby immediately if they grumble, etc. For night wakings interactions are kept to a minimum, so ignoring attempts to chat and play, lights stay off, repeat "it's nigh, it's time to sleep" and similar. Now they are older it's obviously different, but also similar - no screens before bed, some chill out time, book before bed, lights out. Same with night wakings - very low key, no lights on, no chat. But will still give them a cuddle back to sleep or, as I said above, let DS sleep with me when he is scared of a nightmare.

All these things contribute to a good sleep environment, none of them involve CC.

@AliceinSlumberland see above :)

I'll say it's not necessarily easy. There have been times where I've been super frustrated, up for hours, 8 wakings a night. But we did get there eventually and I would say the kids now, generally, have a pretty good routine/ sleep environment..

By the way, you can teahc yourself these things too, as an adult. I have suffered from insomnia on and off my whole life (my parents were not lax on sleep), and good routines and sleep hygiene have greatly improved it. Along with making a conscious effort to address my anxiety/ stress levels.

Most parents (me anyway, and I'm sure most of those who have commented here) who chose to sleep train of course understand as well as you, and practised, these fundamentals, to no avail.

I guess it depends to "what no avail" means to you. Especially my DD was an awful sleeper but I stil chose to keep going with these rather than to sleep train. Eventually she got it and is a great sleeper now - she is 9 though! (she slept through from around 2). I am not giving advice on how to get a baby to sleep (as mine were crap at that, so I am the worst person to give advice), but rather answering the question I was asked of how you can instill good sleeping habits longer term without needing to do CC.

Also, lots of the mums I knew managed with these techniques. Their babies were significantly better sleepers than mine generally, and using these methods was successful for them.

This is a very long thread with plenty of examples of the desperation of what 'to no avail' means in individual cases, I won't go into it again, or have some sort of competitive debate that my 'to no avail' to others means I was selfish or weak or lazy etc. Although I suppose anyone who does think that won't agree with the point of my post, which is that it's quite a mean premise that those who have sleep trained are lacking in good parenting fundamentals, which if they weren't, would not have needed to resort to sleep training.

You asked me the question.

I am not suggesting you are weak/ selfish/ lazy - you are implying something that wasn't said - I just made different choice to you.

And who on earth said this:

"which is that it's quite a mean premise that those who have sleep trained are lacking in good parenting fundamentals, which if they weren't, would not have needed to resort to sleep training."

Certainly not me.

I have throughout this thread insisted that sleep training isn't cruel and we shouldn't judge. You reply to something I have said, as an answer to someone else's question, and then read a whole lot of stuff into it that I never said (in fact I have said the opposite). That defensiveness says more about how you feel about sleep training than anything else.

You said good sleep habits can be set up without CC, there are plenty of us here who are saying it couldn't be done in our case.
You didn't say parents that sleep train are weak lazy, etc but there have been many on here who have. I said 'people' not you, because I was referencing the whole thread.
I honestly have no issues with having sleep trained, it was over 30 years ago! I am sad at the meanness of mums being judgmental of other mums, especially reading the difficult experiences of some opening their hearts on here.

Despite some of the opinions on here regarding how irresponsible it is NOT to sleep train, my eldest finally started sleeping through at just over 2yo. A brass band couldn't have wakened him from that time on. He's 14 now and in total teenager sleep-the-clock-round mode. He started sleeping through when he was ready. I could have done with it happening a bit sooner, but there you go ...

You said it specifically with reference to my comment re "no avail".

I amso think it's sad there is so much judgement - both ways. But at least some of it seems to be implied.

And yeah, you can establish good sleep habits without CC. Otherwise the majority of the adult population would be still be Bfing/ rocked to sleep which of course isn't the case. 1) because babies are different, 2) because other sleep training methods are available 3) things tend to sort themselves out eventually with a little comment sense. Those things do NOT mean parents should be putting up with sleep deprivation nor that they are cruel for sleep training if that's what they want or need.

My comments were directed at the poster who gleefully agreed that the night wakes and singing with a 4 year old were to meet her needs.

However if you are in such a state that you are in danger of crashing your car/ self harming / having a breakdown then I think it's irresponsible not to seek help or make changes.

By the way when I asked for help on mumsnet about being sleep deprived and being in danger of crashing the car, I was just told not to drive. Nobody told me to sleep train.

Helpful if you need to get to school or work !

@PrestonNorthHen I do find there is a small contingent of mums who think you should spend months or years doing exactly what a baby and toddler wants without anything mundane like working, shopping, housework, or having any fun for yourself. The answer to everything is to do what your baby wants.

I replied to you questioning the no avail comment, saying that others will see it as lazy etc etc. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear I didn't mean you (I knew you didn't say it) and was a general comment aimed at those who had explicitly said such things - ie the person telling me my 30 something children will soon be dumping me in an old people's home because I sleep trained 🤣
Re the 'mean premise' I do own that and it was in reply to you saying you can set up good habits without sleep training. You've since elaborated that most children can have good sleep habits without it, which of course is true (tho you then say there are other sleep training methods so I wouldn't know where we overlap/differentiate on sleep training methods) All in all probably just a semantic slip/misunderstanding.