To be upset about the treatment of disabled people after this?

[Livingtothefull]

DH, DS & I headed off this afternoon for a planned evening out. DS is in a wheelchair. We got to the bus stop closest to us and waited for a bus. And waited and waited.

It was very cold & DS was complaining of being cold. DS can get cold more easily than us as he is not walking or moving around. Eventually left the bus stop and walked into town where there were likely to be more buses. Waited some more and eventually a bus actually came, nearly an hour by now after we had started waiting for the next bus although they should normally come every 10 mins or so.

I waited to get on the bus at the front while the driver tried to get the wheelchair ramp down. Overheard a few complaints from some other passengers 'why can't they let us on first before the ramp?'. Eventually though the driver said that the ramp wasn't working so he couldn't let us on.

I told the driver we could manage without the ramp but he refused as he said he couldn't be responsible for that. I just lost it then said we needed to get my DS on, he was cold and we couldn't wait longer for a bus. The driver said no though tried to call to find out when the next bus was coming & couldn't get any information. Some passengers gave up and left the bus to walk while this was going on, a few of them with dirty looks in our direction.

The driver said that he couldn't locate the next bus although one should arrive 'soon'. I did apologise to the driver for losing my temper, appreciated it was not his fault and he had tried to help us. We gave up then.

Finally.....a bus arrived that we could get on, although there was an empty buggy in the wheelchair space that we needed to fit around. No small children nearby so probably the buggy owner had taken the child upstairs in the double decker and left the buggy to be in the way of wheelchair users. Happens a lot.

I know this sounds like a long rant so let me know if IABU. But I just want us to have nice days and evenings out like everyone else without hassles, frustrations and upsets.

So, AIBU to complain about:

A public transport infrastructure that is unreliable despite many vulnerable people needing to rely on it. If a bus's doors were not working and people couldn't access, it would be called out of service. So why is it acceptable to have a bus in service when the ramp doesn't work?

The attitudes and behaviours of a significant minority of people. Why is it acceptable to openly complain when prioritising the disabled mildly affects them? Why is it acceptable to dump buggies (or trollies etc) in the wheelchair space?

The thing is those accessibility things for those who are obviously disabled actually make life easier for everyone else at different times of their life.

Without a demand for wheelchair spaces there would be no buggy spaces on buses/tubes/trains.

Without a demand for lower kerbs on pavements those who injured their legs/ankles or are just little would have more difficulty crossing roads.

Without a demand to make websites accessible for those who are blind, more websites would be hard to navigate.

Ensuring films, news and other programs have subtitles means those learning a language or hearing people in a noisy environment can actually follow what is going on.

There are tonnes of other examples but making things accessible actually helps you in more ways than are immediately obvious.

@lieselotte www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/learning-disabilities-patients-told-they-may-be-too-frail-for-mechanical-ventilation-if-they-get-covid-19/7027318.article

A quick google will remind/inform you.

I agree, there was plenty of reporting to the effect that disabled people might not be a priority for lifesaving treatment during the pandemic.

And many also dnr's placed on their medical files too.

I don't know. I can see it from both sides. Sorry. I mean ambulatory people can get on buses,quite quickly and swipe. I guess it depends how Xmas we're in the queue. I do remember being stood at the top of a,long queue in York, freezing weather and it was pouring down. I couldn't find my return ticket so rather than keeping everyone waiting outside while I waded through my handbag in the dry, I let everyone else get on first. It was a long queue but they were all on pretty quickly. I know your situation is different with a child but you'll have wrapped him up very warmly. And it does take ages to get the ramp down.

I also wouldn't expect them to leave themselves a bus short by not taking one out because the ramp doesn't work. And I'm sure if they knew it didn't work and they could have just replaced it with another, they would have. Clearly the driver didn't know it wasn't working.

Having said all that, I can understand you being annoyed and fed up. And you were worried about your child. It's freezing out there and the last thing you need is people muttering about you. It's not necessary. Hope you're all feeling warmer now.

Full sympathy op. I gave up on buses with a stacked double buggy as made me anxious as often couldn't get on or there were no spaces, I can only imagine it's a 1000x worth being a wheelchair user and not having a choice.

I probably should have done @lieselotte however as mentioned above I have to choose my battles. After one run in about bus access I just felt I couldn't face another when my original objective setting out was just to have a nice evening, not pick fights with anyone.

I would also be worried about being held liable for any damage to the buggy following being moved. In case anyone thinks I am paranoid:

A few years ago we arranged for DS to join the local Scout Association, of course he needed his wheelchair there. Despite all the other children being warned about not touching the wheelchair and us paying for a 1:1 carer to accompany him, another child touched the wheelchair & hurt themselves.

The parents put in a formal complaint and made noises about legal action. The organisers were panic stricken (they were volunteers and so giving up their own time to look after other people's children) and asked us to put masking tape over parts of the wheelchair to help stop it happening. We refused as it could have damaged the wheelchair and made it unsafe for DS. We were also worried about being personally liable, along with the organisers.

Ultimately, to the sorrow of both ourselves and the organisers, we felt we had to withdraw DS from the group.

Exactly this. I read the guidance publication myself that was sent to all the doctors. On a side note, it was the same with the care homes. Watch the film Help on Netflix about it.

Yes, even learning disabled! So the underlying health conditions means the ventilator wouldn’t save you line was absolute bollocks.

'I also wouldn't expect them to leave themselves a bus short by not taking one out because the ramp doesn't work. And I'm sure if they knew it didn't work and they could have just replaced it with another, they would have. Clearly the driver didn't know it wasn't working.'

I think it is up to the bus company to ensure the bus is working before letting it leave the depot on a route. Surely it is up to them to have contingencies in case a bus is out of order ie extra buses? I have known buses with doors not working being taken out of service mid route, and replaced. If the ramp isn't working then it's the same; the bus is out of order. Unless it is less important that disabled people are able to access the bus.

And it really doesn't take 'ages' to get a ramp down (if the ramp is working). A minute or so at most. Are people really that impatient?

If I was with my first husband in this situation I'd have shoved the pushchair into the isle, if it was in the was someone could have moved it.

I wouldn't have done at first, I'd have been polite and nice. Living with someone with disability hardens you to the selfish twats in the world.

Our life together was cut far to short, it was certainly too short to put up with people taking space specially designed for a wheelchair, or coming up with some highly complex and ridiculous reason why an empty pushchair takes precedence.

I don't think a bus shouldn't run just because of a problem with the ramp. I do think they should check these things in advance and have spares.

There are no contingencies. There are no extra busses. I really don't think you understant the dire situation with bus companies. I did explain this earlier. They are not just magically replaced with a 'spare' bus. One will just be removed from another route causing issues elsewhere. You would be surprised how many busses to not have a functioning ramp, or an agency driver who does not know how to operate it.

The problem is anything go wrong and the driver will be held responsible
we are now sadly in a compensation and liability culture rather than common sense one

Surely it is up to them to have contingencies in case a bus is out of order ie extra buses? I have known buses with doors not working being taken out of service mid route, and replaced. If the ramp isn't working then it's the same; the bus is out of order. Unless it is less important that disabled people are able to access the bus.

I understand what you're saying. I do. But if they don't have that contingency, do they run one short? But anyway, in this situation, it looked like the bus driver didn't know - maybe not had cause to use it. They could hardly take it out mid service. You'd want them to kick everyone off the bus because you couldn't get on it? I understand the ramp affected you but it didn't effect the running of the bus or the safety aspect. The doors not opening would be a H&S issue should they need to do an emergency exit.

And it really doesn't take 'ages' to get a ramp down (if the ramp is working). A minute or so at most. Are people really that impatient?

Well, yeah, as you've discovered, when it's cold and uncomfortable, I guess they are.

I wish I could say I didn’t believe this but as the parent of a teen who is registered blind and uses a long cane, I am horrified by the numbers of adults who literally jump over her cane on busy pavements to try to gain themselves a few extra seconds! In my idle moments, I invent mobility devices with remote-controlled flick knives or spurs, a bit like those on Roman chariots.

I’m so sick of society’s indifference and/or hostility to my DD’s disability that I have become battle hardened. It’s shameful that your son had to leave Scouts but even more shameful that the other parents complained, despite their child’s poor behaviour.

Of course you're not BU. People are selfish and it's too much effort to do anything which benefits someone else. In fairness some people have difficult lives but can't see things from a different perspective.

Undoubtedly there'll be plenty telling you that you are unreasonable and how it's not fair for them either.

I was on a bus in Malta on holiday. Midafternoon and the bus was packed so there were a number of people standing up. The bus stopped and picked up a load more passengers but the last one was told the bus was full and she couldn't get on. He was only allowed so many standing. Shecwiukdnt get off and hecwoukdnt go. Health & safety. And I guess no insurance. The passengers were getting mad and muttering, she was avoiding eye contact and the driver was getting animated. I guess the driver has his rules to stick to.
She did, of course, get off.

Where do they magically conjure up fleets of extra working buses? Surely it doesn't work like that?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4690767-zero-wheelchair-cities

Given that there's a bus driver shortage at the moment, I'd imagine that there are spare buses because there's no one to drive them.

OK I quite understand that IAB hugely U in expecting bus companies to prioritise disabled passengers and direct adequate resources to ensure they can access transport together with non-disabled people.

Funny though that the law says something different:

The Equality Act 2010 requires bus companies to take steps to ensure Disabled people can get the same service as everybody else by making reasonable adjustments for Disabled people. The steps the bus companies have to take include (among others):

ensuring there is physical access, for example operating a ramp, or stopping the bus so it is safe for you to exit

Reasonable adjustments that are already made, such as ramps or audio-visual announcements should be in working order.

If you have experienced any of the problems below, it is most likely that the bus company breached your rights under the Equality Act:

(Among the others) the bus did not stop for you or you were not allowed on the bus and you think this was because of something connected to your disability.

Being someone who worked for a bus company for many years, it’s an impossible situation. Whilst they want to do all they can for wheelchair users, they also limit what a bus driver can do. If the ramp isn’t working and an accident happened the bus driver would be held responsible and fighting for their job. When there’s a a pram in the area all they are allowed to do is ask for the pram to be moved, if they refuse or don’t respond the bus driver is told to do nothing. I’d be careful complaining because no matter what you say about how helpful the driver was, it will be blamed on him. He’s in a lose lose situation.

Yanbu. I'd have 'yeeted' the buggy down the bus out of the wheelchair space.