To be upset about the treatment of disabled people after this?

[Livingtothefull]

DH, DS & I headed off this afternoon for a planned evening out. DS is in a wheelchair. We got to the bus stop closest to us and waited for a bus. And waited and waited.

It was very cold & DS was complaining of being cold. DS can get cold more easily than us as he is not walking or moving around. Eventually left the bus stop and walked into town where there were likely to be more buses. Waited some more and eventually a bus actually came, nearly an hour by now after we had started waiting for the next bus although they should normally come every 10 mins or so.

I waited to get on the bus at the front while the driver tried to get the wheelchair ramp down. Overheard a few complaints from some other passengers 'why can't they let us on first before the ramp?'. Eventually though the driver said that the ramp wasn't working so he couldn't let us on.

I told the driver we could manage without the ramp but he refused as he said he couldn't be responsible for that. I just lost it then said we needed to get my DS on, he was cold and we couldn't wait longer for a bus. The driver said no though tried to call to find out when the next bus was coming & couldn't get any information. Some passengers gave up and left the bus to walk while this was going on, a few of them with dirty looks in our direction.

The driver said that he couldn't locate the next bus although one should arrive 'soon'. I did apologise to the driver for losing my temper, appreciated it was not his fault and he had tried to help us. We gave up then.

Finally.....a bus arrived that we could get on, although there was an empty buggy in the wheelchair space that we needed to fit around. No small children nearby so probably the buggy owner had taken the child upstairs in the double decker and left the buggy to be in the way of wheelchair users. Happens a lot.

I know this sounds like a long rant so let me know if IABU. But I just want us to have nice days and evenings out like everyone else without hassles, frustrations and upsets.

So, AIBU to complain about:

A public transport infrastructure that is unreliable despite many vulnerable people needing to rely on it. If a bus's doors were not working and people couldn't access, it would be called out of service. So why is it acceptable to have a bus in service when the ramp doesn't work?

The attitudes and behaviours of a significant minority of people. Why is it acceptable to openly complain when prioritising the disabled mildly affects them? Why is it acceptable to dump buggies (or trollies etc) in the wheelchair space?

You are probably right @TheLightSideOfTheMoon and it would have served them right if we had done that. But you know, we just wanted to have a nice evening out not get into confrontations with people (especially in front of DS), I am conscious of needing to pick my battles. Really it should have been up to the driver to get the buggy moved; but had just had a row with one driver so didn't want to have another.

I wrote to TfL suggesting this and got such a condescending response back about how they’d just redesigned the buses (the curved glass ones - v pretty but pricey and still only one wheelchair place, that’s not enough and not flexible enough).

This was in response to a PP about lower deck being all flip-up seats

I booked passenger assistance and get asked quite often if I really need the ramp I requested. No it's just for fun...

(I once failed to get on a train and fell between the gap you're told to mind. It fucking hurt)

@Livingtothefull

Don’t forget disabilities come in all shapes and sizes. I understand youre frustrated and want to vent but what if:

1. The bus driver has GAD and worries excessively, he didn’t want to go against the rule in case he got into trouble
2. He’s neurodiverse and is clinging to the rules to add some stability to a world that isnt designed without his needs in mind
3. The parent on the bus was overwhelmed due sensory sensitivity’s and had to dash upstairs in search of calm and they were in such distress they didn’t have the mental capacity to stop and take down the buggy. Was it a wheelchair only space or a disability space?

Im classed as severely disabled and often need to use the designated disabled seats on public transport. To the outside world I look like an an average 30 something women. The abuse I’ve had from people with mobility issues, especially those who when they’ve explained their need aren’t as disabled as myself, has been absolutely disgusting at times.

As the partner of a bus driver I can tell you that the ramps do sometimes just not work. Sometimes drivers just don't know how to use them properly and are also under pressure to be on time. The busses are also maintained to the bare minimal standards just to keep them roadworthy and won't be taken out of service because of a faulty ramp when there is a shortage of drivers. Bus companies are cutting maintenance to the bare bones. It wasn't that long ago busses had heating in winter but engineers now disconnect it so drivers can't turn it on for passengers to save fuel. You'd be surprised with the state of affairs.

It is disappointing but there is serious work to be done to make public transport as accessible as it should be to wheelchair users. People assume the designated wheelchair space is designated for buggies. I was on a bus once when two mums refused to move when a wheelchair got on board and had to be shamed by other passengers to let the wheelchair user on. All they cared about was where were they supposed to go? I said one of you needs to get off and wait for the next bus or fold your buggy up, just let the lady in the wheelchair on you can see she's ill. The driver only intervened when other passengers started getting really upset that able bodied people were refusing to let a wheelchair user on. I'm so sorry your experience was different but please don't lose heart. Hopefully not every journey will be like this x

I've taken to getting the train into my city centre now. Buses are a nightmare but I've not had much problems using the train. I'm currently using a wheeled walking frame and the bus drivers never offer to use the ramp. Or even lower the bus.I always have to ask. And then when I get on I'm met with lots of older people with them four wheeled trollies they use for shopping and I usually have to get back off due to lack of room.

Had a fella have a right moan about having to move his bike out the disabled part of the train recently. He said "unlike some people I've got to get into work by 9am!". I politely showed him my works lanyard and said "yes me too". Apparently if you're disabled you shouldn't be using public transport when other people need to get to work. Prick.

I do understand @SHNBV that not all disabled people are wheelchair users and the fact that some disabilities are not apparent do not make them any less real. I am truly sorry that you have faced the difficulties that you described here and having to deal with abuse is unacceptable. IMO in the circumstances you have described, another passenger should have offered a seat to you or another person claiming a disabled seat. There shouldn't be a competition for disabled people to be accommodated - if someone says they need accommodation it should be granted without any need to justify it.

Just to respond to the points you raised:

'The bus driver has GAD and worries excessively, he didn’t want to go against the rule in case he got into trouble/He’s neurodiverse and is clinging to the rules to add some stability to a world that isnt designed without his needs in mind'.

That is possible; as stated in my original post I apologised to the driver as I really don't think it was his fault. It is likely he was doing as he was instructed to do, ie to allow wheelchairs on only with the ramp for safety reasons - though on other occasions we have been allowed on a bus without a ramp so from our perspective it is very hit & miss.

It was not the driver's fault the ramp didn't work, as mentioned upthread I think the bus should not have been put in service in the first place with a faulty ramp. I don't think this should be down to the driver's discretion - there should be a clear protocol which would surely be helpful in the circumstances you have referred to.

What happens btw if we get on the bus and the ramp then breaks down?

'The parent on the bus was overwhelmed due sensory sensitivity’s and had to dash upstairs in search of calm and they were in such distress they didn’t have the mental capacity to stop and take down the buggy. Was it a wheelchair only space or a disability space?'

It was a wheelchair only space. It is of course possible that it happened the way you have suggested; it is also possible that the parent left the buggy there because they didn't care about the implications for a wheelchair user. The sheer number of occasions this happens leads me to think that the latter is generally the case - maybe not on every single occasion, but frequently.

I am sorry @forlornlorna1 about what you have experienced, though sadly not surprised. We have faced hostility when out and about with DS so many times I have lost count. There are so many people out there who can't bear to be inconvenienced even in the slightest by other people's needs.

This is why I don't believe any people who claim they 'don't have a disablist/sexist/racist bone in their bodies'. Sorry but we ALL (me included) have it in us to be selfish and justify our selfishness to ourselves. It is so easy to feel reasonably benign about others until their needs come into conflict with our convenience and wants. It is up to the individual's character from there how it plays out.

When the ramp doesn't work I go to the front door and put the wheelchair on without the need for a ramp. We are on board before the driver can object.

This is what we had to do before they were ramps available. When I was at school we used to have to put my wheelchair-using friend on a Routemaster bus. That was fun.

Those empty buggies can be a nuisance. Sometimes there isn't even a child involved, people round our way use them as shopping trollies.

We were once told we couldn't get on because there was an empty buggy in the wheelchair space. I got on anyway and asked the driver why he hadn't asked the owner to move it. His reply was that he didn't ask because they wouldn't do it anyway. The owner of the buggy then chipped in that of course he would move it. He was very annoyed with the driver for not asking.

@SherbetDips

That's what I thought you meant. But I don't think it's about patience. It's about respect. People should respect others and their needs, and being older or having a disability shouldn't change that. Honestly, my experience is that it often - too often - does. The lack of respect for people with disabilities all too often goes on and on and on, just on this site alone. Given the attitudes some people here have, it is small wonder that the general public are nasty, officious and downright rude when faced with some mild inconvenience because a person with a disability is "in their way"

Congratulations on failing in your very first aim. I presume that I can stop paying taxes and NI since I have no right to expect any services, in your opinion. Why are your needs more important than mine? Do you pay more taxes than I do? I am willing to bet you don't. People with disabilities ALREADY PAY for public transport and have the same right to use it as you do. Why should we have to run services for ourselves when we already pay for services?

I rest my case on the subject of how people with disabilities are treated as having less worth than others. I do so hope that those able-bodied people who think we don't have te same rights or entitlement to respect as you think is due to you discover, one day, that karma exists.

I should walk with a stick.

Using my stick is like putting a 'kick me' sign, so unless it's a really bad day when I have no choice, I don't bring it out with me.

If you use a disability aid, people suddenly treat you as if you have no right to exist & as if every single thing you do is somehow in their way, even if you are nowhere near them or where they are going, or as if you are invisible.

They are the same people who always have an excuse why they 'need' to use the disabled toilets/use the disabled bay on the bus or carry a handbag on their elbow so they can smack wheelchair users in the face & blame the person in the chair for 'being in the way'.

I thought prams/ buggies have to get off if a wheelchair user requires the space?

I think it's awful and agree that people always have a reason to use accommodations which aren't for them; toilets, spaces etc "I'll just be amin", "no one was using it", "I have a child"...

I remember one thread about accessible toilets being used by parents and a poster saying that all babies should be classed as disabled as they can't function on their own!

I do honestly believe that the spaces on buses and trains that she for wheelchairs should be just for wheelchairs.

I'm sorry you had such an awful experience OP. It isn't right or fair and unfortunately many people are ableist and even within the disabled community as a whole there are some who have a sense of entitlement to every possible accommodation even if they don't need it.

I was in Pets at Home today and there was a fairly long queue so they opened a new till.i was next in the queue so started walking over to it. But I'm disabled and walk slowly, so someone from the back of the queue decided to run past me and then the cashier still served him even though they'd seen it happen.

'I thought prams/ buggies have to get off if a wheelchair user requires the space?'

By law other users should make way for a wheelchair; they are not required to get off but should make the space available (by folding the buggy etc) if necessary. However IME this is not consistently enforced.

Well, this is a predictably depressing thread. I'm sorry you've had to deal with this shit, OP. It's not OK

I wonder if, God forbid, you or your loved one had to use a wheelchair you'd be quite so condecending?

I almost started crying at a train station last week. I can walk but it's extremely painful, and even in central London the network is just not set up for disabled access. The first station had no alternative to two flights of stairs, which wiped me out before I got on the first train. Then were I had to change, I needed to get three different lifts separated by several long corridors/tunnels with no benches. Then when I got to my destination I had to take another two flights to get out - no escalator or lift.

That was on Wednesday and I'm still in pain. If I'd been in a wheelchair I couldn't even have used two of the stations I went to.

Designers just put absolutely no thought in how buildings will work for anybody less mobile.

If a bus's doors were not working and people couldn't access, it would be called out of service. So why is it acceptable to have a bus in service when the ramp doesn't work?

To be fair, the driver only discovered that the ramp was faulty when he tried it. It may have been tested before it left the depot and worked fine. Obviously though I would expect a bus with that issue to be taken out of service at the next opportunity after the fault has arisen.

The attitudes and behaviours of a significant minority of people. Why is it acceptable to openly complain when prioritising the disabled mildly affects them?

People are twats unfortunately.

Why is it acceptable to dump buggies (or trollies etc) in the wheelchair space?

When working trains I do turn a blind eye to stuff in the wheelchair spaces when it's not required for its primary purpose. The amount of abuse I'd get for moving everything out when there's no actual wheelchair is awful (a woman got fined by a court earlier this year for a slur she used when I asked her to fold her pram down).

That said, when a wheelchair user turns up on the platform, there is no question that they will be getting into that space. Any buggies or suitcases will be cleared from the area and if anyone doesn't fold theirs down I refuse to depart, that usually focuses minds. If the train is wedged so full of standing people that there is no hope of even getting in the doorway then I request an accessible taxi for the passenger at the company's expense.

wheelchair users are a godsend to parents (mostly women) with buggies. The busses would not be accessible to buggy users if not for wheelchair users. So as a person who spend about 15 years of my life pusing a buggy...thank you to people who decided this was important. When I first had kids, most busses were not buggy or wheelchair friendly, it was a nightmare. A few times I was asked by driver to fold up the buggy when a wheelchair user came on, of course I did. But far more buggy users than wheelchair users in the world.

I agree that what you are describing is more of a problem with lack of busses than anything else. Things will always break down.

I would be shocked at the other passnegers reaction, but for a short time I had to use a wheelchair and no one priororitised me when waiting for a lift in the shopping centre, so not too surprised.

I’m not a WC user but with buggy use lifts/etc. a lot. I never understand how people can be so thoughtless - if I am with someone who doesn’t need the lift I will just say ‘meet you upstairs/on the platform/etc’ then end up queueing to wait for 4 lifts to go while gangs of 6 able bodies accompany one person on crutches. I can only imagine it’s 10000% more frustrating if you use a WC and don’t have the prospect of your kids learning to walk to look forward to.

No they weren't!

Sorry to hear this OP. The bus driver was being a jobsworth and I would have just moved the empty buggy!

I would be shocked at the other passnegers reaction, but for a short time I had to use a wheelchair and no one priororitised me when waiting for a lift in the shopping centre, so not too surprised

I remember a thread on here a couple of years ago about people refusing to give priority to disabled people for lifts with everyone claiming to have hidden disabilities or more truthfully saying they'd use the lift if they wanted to and that was just tough.