Page 9 | Told I was 'phobic' for not using pronouns!

NewStartIn50s · 2022-12-08T17:48:48+00:00

Asked for my preferred pronouns and I said ' I don't use them', pushed on what I use to refer to myself and I said I don't use on emails or when I introduce myself or at all. Apparently, if I use them I am showing inclusivity to others and being accepting. I'm not quite a dinosaur yet but why are these things forced on us. I don't have a beard (yet) and I think you can tell what I am/but does it really matter if you can't. So AIBU YANBU - don't have to use pronouns if you don't want to YABU - you should state what your preferred pronouns are

howmanybicycles · 08/12/2022 19:20

nanodyne · 08/12/2022 19:10

It makes perfect sense on emails, where it may not be obvious to someone from a different culture whether your name is male/female/other, I don't know why it would be a bother to include them in your email signature to that end. It helps save embarrassment all round.

In person I suppose it's a small inconvenience to you to make make others feel included. What's your specific problem with doing so (I've only skimmed the thread so apologies if you've already said and I've missed it)?

As a biological female who has no gender identity but has nonetheless experienced discrimination, the stating of pronouns makes me feel excluded

Qazwsxefv · 08/12/2022 19:22

I’m fortunate enough to have a gender neutral title (dr) so I can sign off a letter or email as Dr Qaz and not declare my gender. It definitely gets a more polite and faster response from certain people who are then disappointed to find I am a women. Having to put pronouns would open me up to more discrimination.

SickOfChristmasExpectations · 08/12/2022 19:24

If anyone makes me do this, I am going to say he/him.

I’m clearly not a man, nor do I want to be one.

However, if you are going to mess with my womanhood, I’m going to mess with you back.

MeridianB · 08/12/2022 19:24

JennyMule · 08/12/2022 17:51

My response when asked in previous (public sector) role - I no longer work there - was to ask what other legally protected characteristics the organisation would like me to declare in meetings/emails etc. Answer, there was none 😎

This nails it. Tell your dept head this.

It’s ridiculous to impose this on employees!

HotChoxs · 08/12/2022 19:24

Why do some people think because something is easy to do you should just do it?

I'm not going to throw my underwear out the window just because someone asks me to.

WrongLife · 08/12/2022 19:25

I have a unisex name, more common for men, and work in a very male dominated industry. I've probably been misgendered about twice a month for the last 20 years.

I won't be stating pronouns because I couldn't give a damn as long as you answer my queries in a timely fashion. I do generally correct people, but why would I care if they are embarrassed or not?

YouScumbagYouMaggotHeresKevinTheCarrot · 08/12/2022 19:26

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

Well no, but I imagine a lot of people start using Mumsnet when they have their first child. Am aware some people discover it via Google or other channels for the broad topics, but a great deal of us find our way here when the biological reality of being a mother hits and we need answers and support. Incidentally when sexism hits you fully, many for the first time.

Obviously we might then stay as we get older, but I would think a lot of traffic are first time mum's looking for answers and support. Who will be 20s and 30s.

Aibu is made up of argumentive people (myself included) and there are no age limits on that. Though I suppose women tend to give less fucks as they age.

PonyPatter44 · 08/12/2022 19:26

I'm civil service as well, and although my area was quite strongly captured at one point, and unfortunately pockets of it still are, I've never been told to use my pronouns! I'm slightly disappointed, I like a good bunfight, but its just never come up. I've done TONS of training as well, which is often where this sort of thing raises its head...but nothing. I think it is on its way out, thank God.

Swimmingistoocold · 08/12/2022 19:28

in 1950s Britain many were openly racist. We look back now rightly in horror. Will our future selves look back in horror at how we we’re terribly mean not letting biological males share a tent with our daughters at brownie camp, or will we look back in sheer horror that this was EVER thought to be acceptable. Pronouns - no thank you.

SoupDragon · 08/12/2022 19:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

the average age on here is 55-75.

How did you arrive at that ridiculous assumption?

SoupDragon · 08/12/2022 19:29

MariosMagicMushrooms · 08/12/2022 18:04

Did you just assume the OPs gender?

Show quote history

😂😂

Zosime · 08/12/2022 19:30

We managed to get by for so long without it being an issue.

Putting Mr/Ms or Miss or Mrs, depending on your preference and the custom of the time, worked well enough for centuries.

JangolinaPitt · 08/12/2022 19:30

BlackForestCake · 08/12/2022 18:11

Oh, I am so glad you asked. I am she/her on Mondays. On Tuesdays I am mostly she/it unless I have a client meeting when I am ze/zir. On Wednesdays I am she/they in the morning and he/they in the afternoon. Thursdays and Fridays I am they/them most of the time. At the weekend I am usually she/her except on the fourth Sunday of the month when I am ze/zir again.

If you get any of this wrong I’ll report you to HR.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Quveas · 08/12/2022 19:31

You used 13 pronouns in your OP. "I" is a pronoun. You never, ever, use pronouns????

JackTorrance · 08/12/2022 19:31

You're not being compelled to speak. It's a false equivalence that being asked to use preferred pronouns is automatically assuming any and all beliefs around trans genderism

You're very wrong. Declaring your pronouns is in effect stating that you identify with a particular gender. If it were just a case of pronouns used about someone based on their sex, you'd have no need to state them as people have eyes and can see what sex they are.
If someone has no belief in gender identity, they have no need to state their own pronouns and attempting to force them to do so is indeed compelled speech and attempted religious conversion.

Thisismynamenow · 08/12/2022 19:31

All edi surveys have a 'prefer not to say' on there, so just respond with that 🤷‍♀️

howmanybicycles · 08/12/2022 19:32

Thelangoliers · 08/12/2022 19:11

It’s important to be inclusive, and the stating of preferred pronouns avoids any confusion or embarrassment if someone assumes you are “she” for example, if you don’t identify as such. There are many people who may “look” like they would automatically be “she/her/him/his” etc but they do not self identify as those things, rather than single people out who we might not be sure of it is so much more inclusive to ask everyone.

And to those who are stating you should just say you don’t like stereotypes, think about the irony of that statement.
a lot of folk don’t agree with it, but it’s the reality of the world we live in and everybody has a right to feel included.

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Can you explain the irony because to me it seems ironic to think you're breaking down stereotypes by saying a man becomes a woman when they put on a dress. The reality of the world we are living in is that women are globally oppressed. The TWAW stance enables that.

JackTorrance · 08/12/2022 19:33

It’s important to be inclusive

Unless you're including people who believe that male and female are biological reality, not a belief system. Apparently it's fuck those guys.

SoupDragon · 08/12/2022 19:34

Quveas · 08/12/2022 19:31

You used 13 pronouns in your OP. "I" is a pronoun. You never, ever, use pronouns????

That isn't 13, that's 1.

MarshaBradyo · 08/12/2022 19:34

JackTorrance · 08/12/2022 19:33

It’s important to be inclusive

Unless you're including people who believe that male and female are biological reality, not a belief system. Apparently it's fuck those guys.

Yeh you’ve got to include those people too

And that means no to having to state pronouns

TheMarzipanDildo · 08/12/2022 19:36

VinoDino · 08/12/2022 18:22

I bet in 1960’s America a fair few white people didn’t like working alongside black men and women, those people got used to it as cultural attitudes and norms change.

What's that got to do with gender ideology?

It’s such a bullshit analogy. About a third of my friends are NB, each to their own. I don’t have to buy into gender ideology, though. There is no science behind it. A much better analogy is with religion- I have no objection to working/living with people of a different religion to me, but that doesn’t mean I have to subscribe to the doctrines.

Besides, I presume in this analogy white people=women who are worried about losing single sex spaces and black people=biological males who identity as trans? Which doesn’t work because women didn’t enslave men for centuries. Ffs.

Ytterbium · 08/12/2022 19:36

Sallyh87 · 08/12/2022 19:17

I was thought referring to someone as ‘she’ as opposed to their name was rude. I don’t understand when anyone needs to know this information. Seems like a tick box at inclusion.

Yup, “who’s she, the cat’s mother?” 😂

Dreamwhisper · 08/12/2022 19:37

JackTorrance · 08/12/2022 19:31

You're not being compelled to speak. It's a false equivalence that being asked to use preferred pronouns is automatically assuming any and all beliefs around trans genderism

You're very wrong. Declaring your pronouns is in effect stating that you identify with a particular gender. If it were just a case of pronouns used about someone based on their sex, you'd have no need to state them as people have eyes and can see what sex they are.
If someone has no belief in gender identity, they have no need to state their own pronouns and attempting to force them to do so is indeed compelled speech and attempted religious conversion.

Not true, this makes no sense. If you don't believe in gender then you are stating your very normal and commonly used pronouns. We have different pronouns for males and females in the English language. How is it an automatic assumption that by saying pronouns which will be used in your professional setting, that you are declaring a belief over a gender identity vs biological sex? It's not. No one can definitively say that it is.

And please, "compelled speech and attempted religious conversion"? Can we tone down the hyperbole 🙄

And again, no one is forcing you to use your own pronouns. People may consider it transphobic, perhaps their reasoning might be accurate, but it's not like they can force you. You not liking the fact that people think your assertion to do so may be transphobic, is still not compelling you to speak.

Notanotherusername4321 · 08/12/2022 19:38

Qazwsxefv · 08/12/2022 19:22

I’m fortunate enough to have a gender neutral title (dr) so I can sign off a letter or email as Dr Qaz and not declare my gender. It definitely gets a more polite and faster response from certain people who are then disappointed to find I am a women. Having to put pronouns would open me up to more discrimination.

This.

it’s proven that people respond differently to an individual assumed to be male than female.

NancyDrawed · 08/12/2022 19:39

Thelangoliers · 08/12/2022 19:11

It’s important to be inclusive, and the stating of preferred pronouns avoids any confusion or embarrassment if someone assumes you are “she” for example, if you don’t identify as such. There are many people who may “look” like they would automatically be “she/her/him/his” etc but they do not self identify as those things, rather than single people out who we might not be sure of it is so much more inclusive to ask everyone.

And to those who are stating you should just say you don’t like stereotypes, think about the irony of that statement.
a lot of folk don’t agree with it, but it’s the reality of the world we live in and everybody has a right to feel included.

Show quote history

'It's important to be inclusive / everyone has a right to feel included'...unless you are a non believer in gender ideology, in which case, tough shit, you need to just suck it up and play along?

And so what if someone calls me 'he' when I'm actually 'she'. Surely the point about our own self perception is that it is just that. No one can force others to see them as they see themselves! If you call yourself 'he' and I can see you are female, I would respect whatever name you called yourself and use it if I was interacting with you. But if I referred to you as 'he' to a third party in the conversation (if you were in earshot) I would be mentally changing it to 'she'.

If being your 'true authentic self' relies on affirmation by others and you are so fragile that the wrong pronoun is dreadfully upsetting, I would suspect you are not secure in your own beliefs.

How you self identify is for you and you alone.