Told I was 'phobic' for not using pronouns!

[NewStartIn50s]

Asked for my preferred pronouns and I said ' I don't use them', pushed on what I use to refer to myself and I said I don't use on emails or when I introduce myself or at all. Apparently, if I use them I am showing inclusivity to others and being accepting. I'm not quite a dinosaur yet but why are these things forced on us. I don't have a beard (yet) and I think you can tell what I am/but does it really matter if you can't.

So AIBU

YANBU - don't have to use pronouns if you don't want to

YABU - you should state what your preferred pronouns are

There are people who want to make misgendering a crime. A few years ago a woman in her 60s was the victim of an unprovoked attack by a young transwoman (by the name of Tara Wolff, last heard of cage fighting in Thailand and gagging to be able to fight born women). The woman's compensation was reduced by the judge because, while under oath, she kept forgetting to use 'she' when referring to her male attacker.

Rape victim, child abuse victims were meant to refer to their attackers as 'she' when giving evidence. After an outcry these seem to have been shelved.

Oddly, there's a recent phenomenon where men discover their trans identity while in prison or awaiting trial. This can mean they get sent to a women's jail. There, they (usually having undergone no genital surgery) will share intimate facilities, showers and toilets, with the actual woman. Many women in prisons have been traumatised by male, often sexual, violence.

Sometimes, after being released, these men realise they weren't trans after all.

Anyway, we were talking about pronouns. Can I see any harm?

Why only pronouns - surely it's just as important to know my religion, nationality, background, family history etc etc, so you wouldn't accidentally offend me when wishing me Merry Christmas if I don't celebrate it, for example.

I’m excited to be asked for mine too. I work in the public sector so it’s only a matter of time. Go on I dare you

Why only pronouns - surely it's just as important to know my religion, nationality, background, family history etc etc, so you wouldn't accidentally offend me when wishing me Merry Christmas if I don't celebrate it, for example.

Good point.

I've been wondering that.

What do speakers of other languages do?* Or is this solely an issue in English?

In German, the equivalent of "they" is the same word as "she".

That's not the point.

OP may appear to be of a particular gender and be happy to be addressed as such.

OR OP may be struggling with their gender identity and have been forced to out themselves in a forum they were not yet comfortable to do so.

This is what I throw out when people ask for my pronouns/sexuality/gender. I am not ready to out myself yet. I enjoy watching them all squirm afterwards.

Unless they have a clone why would you ever refer to someone as a plural anything?

Do most people not discuss this at work already?

These comments are as crazy as usual

There are people who want to make misgendering a crime.

It can be a disciplinary matter where I work, but only if it's done deliberately and with the intention of upsetting them. An utter arsehole of a manager tried to give a formal warning to someone who'd "misgendered" a colleague when referring to something that had happened prior to their transition, and it was overturned on appeal.

The "victim" of said misgendering de-transitioned a few months later. No-one has a clue now whether or not they have to refer to them historically as the sex they ID'd as at the relevant time or the sex they are now. Thankfully, our paths don't cross professionally.

One former colleague is gender fluid, and they don't give a shit about how they're referred to.

I had an apprentice that took issue with me not putting my pronouns in my email signature. I thanked her for raising this concern with me. I explained I could see her perspective, thinks it's good she sees herself as a trans ally, and wants to demonstrate a welcoming attitude to trans people by showing this allyship through her pronouns. I explained my position, that I don't feel people should have to put their pronouns on their email signature as not everyone wants to tell the world their gender, some people may be questioning their gender and not feel ready to make a statement about it etc..

I thought we'd had a good discussion. I could see her perspective. I explained mine

2 weeks later she made a formal complaint against me for not being transgender aware or promoting equality.

Personally I couldn't care less if someone identify as male, female, blue, pink, an elephant or a table. As long as they are kind, do their job properly and respect others that's all I'm bothered about. If someone is confused or distressed about their identity, of course I care and will want to support. But making a complaint against your boss, even though they respect your view, just because they have a different opinion on pronoun use is, imo, wokery gone mad! (Thankfully the complaint went nowhere as my own boss is sensible)

So many of these people just want to get attention and cause trouble. It's a power trip.

Another liguistic difficulty has occurred to me.

In Iceland, girl's take the name of their mother as part of their surname, eg LakieLadysdottir, and boys the father's name, with the suffix "son". Would an Icelandic transperson have to change their surname, too?

Do most people not discuss this at work already?

Most people can also take a reasonable guess what pronouns OP would use. But no, she has to add them to all her emails. So why not also
Best regards, NewStart,
she/her, Hindu, single mother, vegan, pansexual, ADHD, postmenopausal, plus sized, believes in fairies etc etc

😁😁

LakieLady

Interesting question. It would appear so, based on my sample of one MTF trans person.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owl_Fisher

That would be a fun thread actually ...

she/her, atheist, cynic, postmenopausal (in case you can't tell), cat-lover, overthinker, curry-eater, likes a good tipple.

Not the person per se. But what if you're referring to something as plural (within their hearing) and they think you are actually referring to them? Oh the confusion and chaos...........

We aren’t talking about guessing though, someone could guess an Indian co worker was Hindu, but that’s just as silly as guessing someone’s gender identity, let alone also has the potential to be offensive.

Unlike religion though gender identity isn’t often discussed generally at work, so the example of ‘what will we have to share next, our religion’ isn’t accurate and shows a very odd way of thinking.

Do you often seen issues at work when someone is describing someone else and random people think they’re being spoken about?

The same would apply if I was talking about Mary to John and said ‘she is being annoying’ do you think it’s likely that every woman in the area would think they were the ‘she’ being discussed?

no

because that’s not how life works. So no confusion

This is the issue I've seen time and time again. You were sensitive and took her concerns seriously. But IME any form of conciliatory gesture is simply viewed as 'weakness'. (So glad her complaint went nowhere).

This is exactly where #BeKind has got women. It's in no small part of the reason that I no longer for one moment entertain it. I use few words, and am as terse and to the point as possible. The less you say the less they can twist. Three words: 'pronouns are optional' is all she'd have got out of me.

Even my employers, who are up to their nuts in allies and sport rainbow flags and lanyards everywhere, don't make pronouns mandatory, albeit it's strongly encouraged. I, on the other hand, am well aware how dangerous it can be to 'out' a trans person, am well-versed in protecting young trans people (some of whom are very vulnerable), and will pull out all the stops to offer them support. For my views about not announcing pronouns, or involuntary trauma responses as a twice rape-victim when in vulnerable situations with natal males, I'm brushed off as a 'transphobe'. Would they rather I continued to protect gender questioning people as above, or signaled my compliance with rainbows and pronouns?

There's so much navel-gazing bound up with this whole self-involved movement - part of a much broader picture of identity politics - it's beyond tiresome. In reality, your identity is of zero interest to anyone other than you. For my part, I couldn't give a bison's bum how anyone else perceives me.

As for 'guessing' pronouns, people have been doing this with mine for 40+ years with pretty much a 100% success rate. Other people's comfort and wellbeing does not come at the expense of my own. If I'm asked for mine again, rather than responding with a coy 'that's not a practice I follow', I might be tempted to say 'surprise me!'

Why would someone be using a pronoun to my face and if they’re using it outside my earshot why would I care?

They might say it in a meeting, something like, 'well done, Cecily, she always comes up with brilliant ideas!' Though these days they might be worried that they've said the wrong thing!

It's becoming a grammatical nightmare. If someone has appropriated 'they' as their pro noun, then WTF do we now use as a plural? Would it be 'theys' 'thems' and 'thoses'???

It really isn't becoming a grammatical nightmare. It's always been perfectly normal to refer to a person using 'they' if gender isn't specified - e.g. in a school letter 'If a student wishes to audition for a part, they should x, y or z*. You don't need to pluralise 'they', because it is already mostly used as a plural so you'd still use 'they', not 'theys'!

It's either daft or disingenous to object to these things on grammatical grounds, and I say that as a language teacher. There is rarely ambiguity of meaning, because context makes things clear. We all seem to cope ok with having no distinction between plural and singular 'you' in English, after all!

There's plenty to object to about enforced stating of pronouns, but alleged grammatical confusion isn't one of them imo.

Why would someone be using a pronoun to my face and if they’re using it outside my earshot why would I care?

It is perfectly common to use 3rd person pronouns about someone in their earshot.

*I would much prefer that, rather than an obligation to use a person's specified pronouns regardless of how that may clash with our own identity and values, we had an option of polite gender neutral pronouns that can be used for anyone regardless of gender/sex.

I think having a language that requires us to label people as male and female to talk about them(1) at all, even just to say they(1)'ve put the bin out, is the thing that should have been tackled rather than keep the daft, outmoded sex-based language but let people choose which set they want to be referred to.*

Works in theory, except we base quite a few decisions on sex with mind to safeguarding and dignity.

I've. It's late at night. A friend says their friend Robin will give me a lift home as it's on their way home.

Personally, my decision would change depending on whether a she or a he was used.

Which shows the importance of sex based pronouns because risk doesn't change when gender identity does.

Works in theory, except we base quite a few decisions on sex with mind to safeguarding and dignity.

I get what you're saying, but in my native language, there are no gendered pronouns and honestly I have never encountered this type of issues in real life. If the sex is important but unclear, you can specify, but that would be in very rare cases.