To be horrified at the number of women financially vulnerable

[Mammalamb]

Every time I’ve been on mn recently, there is yet another thread about a woman being financially abused : used by her “d” p.

do we need some sort of financial literacy or something for young women? Do we need some more help around self esteem for women to stop them putting up with this shit?

personally, I think if you’re going to be having kids or living together, then get married. Appreciate not everyone wants marriage. But if you don’t, make sure you are financially protected

Financially vulnerable does not equal being financially abused. Choosing to be a SAHM and not marry your partner for eg puts you in a financially vulnerable position, unless you have your own wealth.

Choosing to not marry and then move in with a man where you don't have your name on the deed or contribute to the mortgage but you invest your own money into the home is not abuse.

I agree.

@musingsinmidlife I think what you are forgetting is that the there are a sizeable amount of women in this country who live in a very different world to the one you live in. It could be religious and cultural reasons, even the fact that things were massively different just 30 years ago has had a huge impact on the way many women view financial independence. There are a lot of women who are in this position through no fault of there own and to be fair there are a lot who are in this position because they actively wanted their husbands to be the breadwinner. It’s not just an educational thing, it’s attributable to many things but yes fundamentally I agree every woman should be financially independent or at least try and have some savings.

As long as women continue to believe in ‘family money’, they will be financially vulnerable. There is no such thing. Whether it’s paper money, illiquid assets or earning power.

Just because you are married, it’s not safe to give up your earning power, thinking that you will be ok because all money is ‘family money’. The man will walk away from the relationship with his share of assets and his earning power. The woman is left as non-working parent with stagnant earning power.

If they are married the starting point for division of assets in a divorce is 50/50.

I've seen nothing on this thread that overtly or implicitly says such women are "thick". Threads show the level of ignorance ( I mean this in its original sense) about the legal situation and therefore the need for education so very often on MN. And that's before you get to the well-informed, who still make unwise decisions, or those taken in good faith and still get fucked over.

You don't have to be middle class to have your head screwed on, so who's being patronising now?

No-one has claimed they could never be a victim of abuse, just written of steps to cushion/mitigate it by being as independent as possible.

Ladies? Pfft.

well you clearly haven’t read the thread then have you. ‘Astounded at the level of ignorance’ ‘MN’s are generally uneducated! Sorry you found ‘ladies’ patronising. Whats wrong with being a lady now for Christ’s sake? I thought that’s what we were?

I make the assumption that it’s middle class women who have been terribly good schools who spout this sort of shit because if you lived in the real world you would understand it’s not so clear cut.
There are a myriad of reasons why women find themselves in this situation and a lack of awareness or poor education is just one of them. Cultural and religious reasons play a huge role too.

Neither traditional, nor religious. It's from the point of view that you would be taking away the choice for people to live together without the obligations of marriage, if that's what they want. I also think that people should specifically opt into these obligations, not have them imposed because they just didn't meet a deadline to opt out.

You want civil partnership or marriage rights, then you get married or get a civil partnership. I don't see how the law in Australia is simpler than that.

Having been left with nothing but the clothes on our backs when my mother left my abusive father when I was ten years old, and then watching my mother strive to become a home and successful business owner i vowed to never rely on anyone for money.
I never took a penny from either parent since turning 16.
When I met dh we both earned similar wages however I have gone on to earn a lot more which is shared in the one family pot.
We could afford a larger mortgage but I would not take on a mortgage that I cannot pay on my own as I wouldn't see my kids homeless like my father did to us. DH couldn't pay it on his own so he would have to go if we ever split.
I have always said to my dds to never rely on a man for anything or anyone for that matter and I would be teaching my sons the same if I had them.

Exactly!! Why are people encouraging women to get married to someone who isn't supportive in that way. That's not a reason to get married.
Being financially independant and encouraging aspirations is what's needed.

I've always been financially independant and now I can support my DS independently because of this.
When I was with his father, we shared financial responsibility. Now I do it on my own because I'm financially stable.
I'm lucky to have had parents who encouraged this. They never encouraged me to marry for financial safety!
It's about having aspirations for the future. Encouraging women to think of what will help their own self-worth.

I also like to think I'm setting a good example for my DS.
I know a couple who believe that a man is less of a man if the wife/girlfriend has to work. It's insane!
They have a DS. What message is that sending him?!

They weren't called thick, which was my point.

You make this assumption makes you no better than those you're criticising. To be middle class is, amazingly living in a real world, what planet do you think they lives on?

Live!!!

We’ve never got married because the thought of having to stand in front of people and do it, even if only 2 witnesses, makes me feel ill. 😬 I hate any sort of attention on me. It’s annoying that to get the rights, you have to get married.

I was a SAHM and have never gone back to work even though our youngest is a teenager. My partner works earning a high salary. For various reasons it was important to me to be at home with our children. We’ve done what we can in terms of having both our names on our houses and splitting savings, I have a lot more of the savings in my name than my partner does. I’ve always had access to all household money. I know he’d never fuck me over financially anyway, I know lots would say you don’t know but I guess you would have to know my partner to know why I have that confidence. I’m sure some would say it’s naivety but 🤷🏻‍♀️. We’re 25 years in now and with 2 houses almost paid for, other assets and savings, I’d be fine anyway.

This is blatantly not what anyone's saying. Women from all backgrounds get abused. Intelligent, educated women who have their own money can suffer from this just as much as women who have never worked. There are many ways for women to be financially abused.

What we're trying to understand is why this is so prevalent despite the fact that a greater proportion of women today work, are educated and have their own money.

It's up to parents to instill financial responsibility. I've always talked to my dc about money, about the need to work and save and to be in charge of your own finances. Hence when they're 18 and adults they've not done anything stupid.

The key to retaining financial security is working full time after kids

I don’t think we necessarily need laws the individual needs to take responsibility for the position there in

This!

I'm so sorry for the victims here of financial abuse - it's awful.

I had a very romantic notion of marriage - and didn't recognise it for the financial contract it also is.

Lack of family support and other factors meant that despite wanting very much to be a SAHM I needed to keep working. In fact I'm now the major earner in the family after my DHA career changed.

Seeing the struggles and divorces and lack of financial independence amongst some of my peers who left work when their kids were young - and now if they do work at all are in insecure, badly paid positions that have to work around childcare- I feel very differently.

I take no pleasure in that - these women deserve better and didn't have the confidence or financial literacy to overcome what society throws at women - successive reasons why we are economically disadvantaged as a group.

I could well have been jn that group - it wasn't wisdom on my part - just circumstances meaning a blessing in disguise

While we have mothers taking a big step back in their careers or becoming SAHMs to raise the children, while letting the man be the only earner and giving him all opportunities to be on charge of the finances, we will continue to have financially abused women. School can’t change what we are thought by example by our parents at home.

It’s annoying that to get the rights, you have to get married.

It's really not. If you want the rights, protections and obligations that come with marriage, you need to make a positive decision to do that, and it's done in front of witnesses because it's a legal contract. It's no more daunting in that sense than applying for a mortgage or signing an employment contract, where you also need to make a decision to do it and then sign a piece of paper. I've never attended a civil partnership but I gather it's about as pared down as it's possible to be. Might that be an option for you, @FallingsHowIFeel?

Yes definitely some sort of phse education on this.
I had a friend whose partner is wealthy and it's definitely all his, he begrudged her staying at home for child care, put pressure on her to work inspite of 100% not needing the money.n

She's managed to get him to loose the purse strings but there is no joint account etc and he's made sure she pays her way (which she can afford).
She's no meek lamb, i don't know why she puts up with it.

It’s annoying to me if I say it is. You can’t tell me what I find annoying. No, I don’t want a civil partnership. We have our finances in order, were very comfortable and all is well.

My mum used to have to ask my dad for housekeeping money every week and he never gave her enough. I love him but he's an absolute tightwad. He's literally got hundreds of thousands stashed in the bank and we grew up with nothing. He's never given me a penny. Sometimes he promises to but he never follows through with it. My mum on the other hand would give you her last £1 if you said you needed it (not that I have ever asked her for money).

That was a major life lesson for me. I went straight back to work after my DC, and my DP shares childcare, and childcare costs, with me 50%. I have a good pension and savings. So my dad probably did me a favour in the long run. The tight bastard!

@missfliss

I take no pleasure in that - these women deserve better and didn't have the confidence or financial literacy to overcome what society throws at women - successive reasons why we are economically disadvantaged as a group.

You're totally right.

People will inevitably pile on here and say this is a "middle class" issue etc. But its something which has the potential to impact every and any woman. Women who give up work to look after children for years are obviously vulnerable but I've seen highly educated, career oriented women targeted by unscrupulous men as well. It happens across the class/income spectrum and its something which we all need to be vigilant around.

Also it doesn't take a huge amount of education or financial literacy to develop the resilience women need. You don't need an A level in economics to work this out, just a bit of life experience and honesty. What needs to happen is a shift in the way people present the idea of a lifelong partnership to young girls. So instead of "you meet someone, you fall in love, you have children and live happily ever after" it moves to a grown up discussion about how you plan to support any children you might have. So every young girl grows up with the clear expectation that if she wants children she needs to work or, if she plans to spend any time at home, she needs to be married. We need them to be warned off the idea that you drift along in the wake of some man, waiting for him to propose, waiting for handouts etc and not rocking the boat.

A lot of it is as simple as teaching girls the confidence to stand up to men and that asserting their needs within the relationship is important. So many women are still socialised to believe that men's needs come ahead of theirs.