To be horrified at the number of women financially vulnerable

[Mammalamb]

Every time I’ve been on mn recently, there is yet another thread about a woman being financially abused : used by her “d” p.

do we need some sort of financial literacy or something for young women? Do we need some more help around self esteem for women to stop them putting up with this shit?

personally, I think if you’re going to be having kids or living together, then get married. Appreciate not everyone wants marriage. But if you don’t, make sure you are financially protected

They should but a lot of them don't. And also parents of particular faiths are apt to indoctrinate girls into certain ideas about marriage which are based on outdated perspectives where are often quite counterproductive. Such as the idea that you have to obey your husband or that it is right for him to be the person who controls the finances.

I don't see why PHSE can't teach women what their rights are through marriage and, critically, what rights they don't have if they are not married.

It is usually more that they see men as wallets and the $$ of having a man pay for their lives seems like a better choice than being responsible for their own finances and financial choices.

I don't feel for most of them - they have made choices as competent adults that have put them in the situation they are in. They are willing to risk vulnerability to have a man pay for their lives. It is a risky move and it doesn't pay off for everyone but that is the reality of making that choice.

Many women do make good decisions and choose to be financially responsible, financially stable, and financially independent from any man. They are not in vulnerable positions because they saw themselves as competent humans who had the ability to make good decisions just like men.

Women aren't stupid or naive or innocent or incompetent. They are humans who weigh the options and make choices like adults of any gender.

Totally this. I tried to articulate both of these things a couple of times, but I got long winded and inarticulate.

Attitudes to marriage from all sides are hopelessly dangerous. From romance and rainbows and women waiting to be asked (while having children in the meantime) to the fact that there is no social pressure to be married anymore (which is a good thing in lots of ways, but not so great when children come along). Men are more reluctant than ever because of the 'she divorced me and cleaned me out' narrative.

Childcare needs to be reasonable and available, but I think there does need to be a way for the state to support stay at home parents in the pre-3 year old period too. It is not reasonable to expect all parents to have children and farm them out full time at a few months old. Of course, getting married would solve this dilemma and I would advise any woman not married to just keep working at all costs. That is the trade off, isn't it?

We keep pretending that women aren't still the ones who still take the financial hit for having children, but they definitely are. More protections need to be provided for them. The situation as it stands clearly isn't working and men seem to hold all of the cards.

I'm not sure I like the 3 years cohabiting law idea, though. I own my own house. I worked for it. No boyfriend is having a share of my house. If I moved one in, would I have to kick him out just to keep my own home?

I doesn’t have to be marriage/ civil partnership.

You could alternatively protect yourself by jointly owning your home, keeping on working, making sure child and other expenses are properly split etc.

When I was with my ex husband we dated young and our relationship naturally moved on to the next stage in our relationship, first renting/living together then marriage and then kids. We never had a mortgage or any significant assets. Couldn’t afford them. But it never occurred to me that marriage was offering me a financial stability, the wedding/marriage part was about us both wanting that - to celebrate us. So many of my female friends- in fact all of them, university educated, in 30s with partners and either have children/ttc, and have zero interest in getting married. It seen as outdated and with possible religious connotations. The idea of being formally tied to someone else actually feels rather off putting to them. They all hold their own with regards to jobs and money and either own their own place or are on the deeds. Marriage just won’t be on the cards for them ever.

as for me, if I do ever meet someone I’d like to be with long term, I don’t intend for it to end in marriage: but then I’m in a good position myself. I have my own place I own, my own job and money. All that said being a single parent is equally as risky in term of financial security and not having a partners income as a safety net should yours fail. I’ve got a lot of insurance and protection for this (hopefully never to be used) need, but that’s my own savvy business, it’s not just “young women” who don’t protect themselves, men should be proactive in wanting to protect their partners!

Nope. The laws should not be changed so that living together for three years basically equals getting married. Instead of that, people who want the rights of marriage should get married.

@Spectre8

Alot of parents don’t understand it either.

I work in the public sector in a professional role that does not really exist in the private sector. I am the top of my payscale without going into the hell that is middle management. So many of my younger female colleagues go off on mat leave and come back part time because 'it is not worth me working due to childcare'. For a start it is not a job that suits part time so they are doing loads of hours unpaid. Also we still get a final salary pension scheme (not what it was) but this is one of the accepted perks for being underpaid for our skill level. As for conversations about how both parents pay for childcare......

I am nearly 50 so at an age when friends are divorcing. It is really sad to see so many women who sacrificed their careers fighting for their share of the house/pension that their partner was able to earn due to the sacrifices they made. I have accompanied 4 in the last two years to see solicitors who would just have given up and believed at this point they contributed nothing.

Yes. Definitely. That works whoever is the higher earner.

It just worries me that people don't have these conversations because they are unromantic or awkward.

I had a man and we were discussing getting engaged. We talked about how finances would work. He got angry with me when I said I wanted to contribute half of everything and have an equal share in everything - for my own security and self respect. We had our own children already, so we both needed to protect them too.

He said this was untrusting of me and a shaky start to a marriage if I didn't trust him to take care of me - and I was already thinking about it going wrong.

We didn't get engaged and split up a while later...

This stuff is important. Everyone needs to be responsible for their own financial security - whether that means furthering careers and not giving up work for children, or putting proper protections in place if someone stays at home with the children. It shouldn't be a difficult conversation, yet so many don't have it until it's too late. Sleepwalking...

You arent kidding OP, I couldn't begin to count the number of women I've met over the years who have surrendered all financial control to their husband while bringing up the kids, stay at home mum, etc. Only to be met with 'you're old, fat and boring, I've got a girlfriend, I'm off' after a number of years. Met another just last week. 20 plus years of marriage, 3 children. She is devastated of course and as unknowing about how to function as an independent adult as a 5 year old would be. Not even got a bank account of her own. She's in her forties and is scared. It's so depressing. Women, bring up your daughters to keep their independence or risk them being walked all over by explorers.

women are the ones impacted financially for having children because they allow themselves to be.

I have been financially abused and i find this post and the comments are incredibly judgemental and offensive.

Auto correct. Exploiters. Not explorers.

I never understood the argument when women say they stay at home as “it’s not worth working due to cost of childcare, as it would wipe out their wage. it wouldn’t even cross their minds that childcare is a joint expense?!

Yes. It's a shared expense and it's future-proofing to keep a career going, isn't it? It's not all about the few years when the children are small.

I am sorry this happened to you and I'm sorry this discussion feels painful.

I think the posts we are talking about are the women who have sleep-walked into a situation they had a choice over. The ones who say things like 'it wasn't worth me working' or 'we didn't get married because I was waiting to be asked and then life got in the way'

I am really sorry you went through that. Of course it wasn't your fault at all.

Women, bring up your daughters to keep their independence or risk them being walked all over by explorers.

This needs to be said. And, controversial opinion, but I don't think the constant cries of 'victim blaming' helps. There are genuine circumstances where victim blaming is real and harmful, but now any comment to women to raise their standards is met with 'well it's not their fault, it's the shit men who are at fault'.

Ok, does that knowledge that men are shit make you less screwed? No. They won't change so we need to look out for ourselves and not accept shit. Raise the bar, it's below ground level

Do you say that from a religious or traditional viewpoint? Otherwise why would not a simpler, more modern law, be better than having to get married if you don't want to?

@peppapig79 I was financially abused too. This thread makes it sound very clear cut, and often it’s not.
Im much older and am glad to see that the younger girls of today won’t make the same mistake I did.

The poster who refused to marry her partner then had another baby with him comes to mind...crazy!

Women need to keep working, unless they are independently wealthy and don't need to. We need more take-up of shared parental leave, where the father takes part of the 'maternity' leave - even if only a small part. If it isn't needed for both parents to work - then both go part time, rather than the mother giving up work altogether. Otherwise we will never eliminate the sex-based pay gap and we will continue to see women left high and dry after they've abandoned their careers and then their partner has a mid-life crisis and buggers off.

This. I certainly learned about finances at school

I read it as women who get financially abused are uneducated and ignorant.

I actually think a lot of these comments are ignorant.

So yes it's painful to read because you are all making a lot of assumptions on something you have never experienced.

I am educated and very switched on, independent and a strong woman yet I found myself in a situation of abuse. That ladies is not my fault!

I agree with you OP, and I’m financially dependent on my husband. At the point I had to stop working (chronic illness) I was the higher earner. The only shred of self esteem I’ve got in that regard is that he insists it was my income enabled him to set up the business that now pays our bills.
I had a conversation with my (much) younger sister a few years ago in which she compared stopping work for being a stay at home mum to my situation. I pointed out that mine was not a choice, while hers was, it did not go down well. I love my husband, beyond words, and a big part of that is he understands how much it takes away from me to be financially dependent on him. I do not understand why anyone would choose it.

I live in Australia and have specifically warned my DD about this. It's two years.

www.fcfcoa.gov.au/fl/pubs/defacto