To think MN has a race problem and it’s getting worse

[MovingOutofZone2]

Posters say incredibly offensive, often outright racist things and MN lets them stand as it’s a ‘difference of opinion’ and that’s fine. Other posters complain about this and MN deletes said complaints as they are ‘personal attacks’ and that isn’t fine.

Then we have mods wandering in and going ‘let’s have peace and love’, as though ‘both sides’ need to calm down. No, we need to stop placating racists.

I’m not going to give examples as this will get taken down as a TAAT, but I cannot be the only person to be fed up with all this. MN needs to do something about the racism, race baiting and general cultural ignorance. Unless the site is ONLY meant to cater to white people and, even then, I firmly believe that most posters of any race don’t want to see all that ugliness.

It’s getting to the stage where, as a Black person, I’m steeling myself before I log on. And knowing that half the time I report a comment, I won’t even get a token acknowledgement. This isn’t right. It wasn’t always like this.

Can I add that being interested doesn't give you a right to the response you are seeking.

If the interests is sincere you and the other person would both feel comfortable in the conversation.

🤣🤣 hmmm sure such an insincere response. But if you really believe that then Im not surprised you don't understand her response

The admin staff was right to question her. Nothing trumps safeguarding children. Even adult hurt feelings.

Alright don’t take it seriously then.

Isn't the "your people" "my people" a very upper class, old fashioned turn of phrase? I remember reading it in boarding school books from the thirties/forties/fifties - I used to collect them. Posh gels used to say it to refer their families.

Yes,it certainly is. “My people farmed in Dorset”
perhaps the person was not aware of this part of upper middle class culture.

Sorry @thewriteradmitsthat I didn’t realise that your post was in answer to mine, as mine was about the othering involved in the questioning, and the rudeness of the persistence in asking where she was from. I don’t completely understand how the heritage/nationality point relates to the persistence of the questioning, but I did go out for a lunchtime beer so may not be at my best!

But to take it in good faith and attempt an answer, I’ll use the example of my ds and his friend. His friend is white and parents are from the Netherlands. He has a slight accent so people sometimes ask him where he’s from. He says “the Netherlands” and the other kids are like “ok, cool” (or usually “where’s that??”) and done. My son is British with Japanese heritage, completely local accent, no Japanese accent at all. Other kids ask him where’s he’s from (based on his face) and sometimes he’ll say he’s British and sometimes he’ll say Japanese, or both. On hearing that, a not-small proportions of kids will go “oh they eat dogs in Japan don’t they! Have you eaten a dog?? Dog eater!!” Some kids will call him a “chi*k” or, confusingly, the p word or n word. Some have blamed him for spreading covid because apparently Japanese is exactly the same as Chinese (not that Chinese people spread covid either!)

So when that happened countless times already, and the next kid comes up to my son and asks him where he’s from, and doesn’t believe he’s English, how do you think my son feels about answering that question?

Even if someone means “but where are you REALLY from?” in complete innocence and interest, the trauma he’s already had from being asked that question and experiencing racism and bullying from the answer makes it a completely different and negative experience for him.

That’s what would be helpful for other people to understand.

PreparationPreparationPrep
hmmm sure such an insincere response
But if you really believe that then I'm not surprised you don't understand her response

I was being genuine - I genuinely can't understand the need for Ngozi's responses here;

“Can I help you?” I would of course say “No.” “Are you looking for somebody?” “No, thank you.” “Are you a parent?” “Well yes I am actually but not to children in this school.”

Or what is wrong with the admin staff member's response;
“Well then I’m afraid you can’t come past here unless you’re a member of staff."

Ngozi had plenty of opportunity to simply say that she was a member of staff/teaching staff or even take the trouble to properly introduce herself. Unless she sees "admin" staff beneath her acquaintance?

As for the later suggestion that she might be kitchen staff, there are plenty of white women who do that job as well.

The beer made me completely lose my point! For some people, talking about their heritage (and if/how it’s different to their nationality) will be a completely positive experience that they’re happy to share. For others, not so much.

@thewriteradmitsthat I think you’ve already posted that SH was wrong to focus so persistently on heritage rather than nationality so I can see we’re in agreement there, so I hope you don’t take that post as a lecture to you, but as an answer to your earlier post here :

“I think that the point about good faith is important one. If we interpret ever single comment in the worst possible way, then no wonder we are in such a mess. I generally assume people I am speaking to are well intentioned and reasonable, as most people are.”

I hope it helps you understand why people taking comments “in the worst possible way” isn’t an effort to attack white people or be obstructive, and sometimes isn’t even a conscious decision. And I think there’s a lot of constructive discussion that could had around that point, unfortunately not often on mn!

@Clavinova my post just now at 16:48 might help you understand her responses.

I hope it helps you understand why people taking comments “in the worst possible way” isn’t an effort to attack white people or be obstructive, and sometimes isn’t even a conscious decision. And I think there’s a lot of constructive discussion that could had around that point, unfortunately not often on mn!

@BewareTheLibrarians yes that is helpful
Thank you and I'm sorry that your son has experienced such awful racism.

The US did NOT fight "a civil war over the issue" of slavery @thewriteradmitsthat

The civil war was about the unity of the nation. Slavery was a pretext.

If it wasn't, there would have been no Jim Crow, and there would have been no Civil Rights movement. No Rosa Parks, no Martin Luther. No Thurgood Marshall, no Brown v the Board of Education, no desegregation of schools in the South.

The founding fathers notoriously fought over slavery in the Declaration of Independence.

Try reading a book or two.

Or if that's too hard, there are gazillion videos on You Tube.

Thanks.

As for the later suggestion that she might be kitchen staff, there are plenty of white women who do that job as well.

Kitchen or domestic I read. You are right there are plenty of white women and more men now doing this job. But I think you know full well that even with this their assumption was kitchen staff before a teacher, whereas for a white woman we know it would not have been the same assumption in the same circumstances. I would suggest this is probably one of many encounters NF has had. Many white people see it as something new , different, unusual , surprising because it is in the news it because of affects the RF. Maybe she meant something else and the list goes on. Whereas if you are on the receiving end of this it is more of the same just a different place so you do eventually become ......tired.

I think there are plenty of white women who would also be assumed to be kitchen based on their clothes, hair etc

@MrsMaxDeWinter i said this earlier. The idea that the civil war was fought to end slavery is revisionist nonsense to make it seem that the Union were actually interested in the welfare of the slaves. In other words 'the good guy'. They didn't want secession more to the point.

BewareTheLibrarians
@ Clavinova my post just now at 16:48 might help you understand her responses

No, it doesn't - which bit?

Ngozi was entering a school building - she didn't know the admin staff member and they didn't know her/hadn't seen her before. She doesn't say she was with a group of teachers and they singled her out, so I'm assuming she entered the school building on her own.

But I think you know full well that even with this their assumption was kitchen staff before a teacher, whereas for a white woman we know it would not have been the same assumption in the same circumstances

No, I don't see that either - why would the admin staff member guess that Ngozi (or someone with white skin) was a teacher from these responses? Do teachers usually play mind games with admin staff?

“Can I help you?” I would of course say “No.” “Are you looking for somebody?” “No, thank you.” “Are you a parent?” “Well yes I am actually but not to children in this school.” “Well then I’m afraid you can’t come past here unless you’re a member of staff."

However, it does, perhaps, give some insight as to how Ngozi's exchange with Lady Hussey developed.

The second part of my response was to PreparationPreparationPrep

Thank you so much for pushing back against this revisionist narrative!

I mean really, If it was all about freedom for the slaves, why the decades and decades of black people fighting for equal rights, both in the north and in the south?

Reminds me of all the bleating from Britain: "But, but, but, we stopped the slave trade!'

Well, dudes, you started it.

So damn straight you should have stopped it.

@Clavinova Really? Ok.

From your comment here:
“Ngozi had plenty of opportunity to simply say that she was a member of staff/teaching staff or even take the trouble to properly introduce herself. Unless she sees "admin" staff beneath her acquaintance?”

When your identity, nationality and heritage have been questioned, often resulting in bullying and racist comments (which I hoped was where the example in my post was helpful) it can become incredibly frustrating to have to keep explaining yourself/your existence.

Was her response helpful to the admin staff? Nope.

Was it a bit weird that the admin staff didn’t know her after 3 months? Having worked in a school, yes that’s a bit weird but maybe my school had a different ethos and this example may be more normal.

Should she have immediately said “I’m a teacher.”? Yes. Is it understandable that, having said this to people before she may have been disbelieved, or she had previously been judged on her capability/suitability due to her race, she was reluctant to have to explain herself yet again? Also yes.

Do I think Ms Fulani had to be ingratiating, smiley, overly attentive and personable at every opportunity lest her earlier words are used against her to minimise racism against her? Abso-fucking-lutely not.

I think there are plenty of white women who would also be assumed to be kitchen based on their clothes, hair etc

Yes I think an assumption about whether a person was a cleaner or a teacher would be more likely to be based on class indicators rather than race.

Or kitchen/admin

Because that’s where we’re at isn’t it? “Look, she’s been ‘tricky’ before and now she’s got what she deserved.”

@thewriteradmitsthat Thanks, I’m glad it helped despite being long and probably not very coherent!

@BewareTheLibrarians good posts.

Not on the basis of their skin though.

And this is all disingenuous anyway, as I said before there are plenty of black doctors, lawyers, bankers etc who report being mistaken for kitchen staff/cleaners whatever and it’s fuck all to do with their hairstyle.