To think MN has a race problem and it’s getting worse

[MovingOutofZone2]

Posters say incredibly offensive, often outright racist things and MN lets them stand as it’s a ‘difference of opinion’ and that’s fine. Other posters complain about this and MN deletes said complaints as they are ‘personal attacks’ and that isn’t fine.

Then we have mods wandering in and going ‘let’s have peace and love’, as though ‘both sides’ need to calm down. No, we need to stop placating racists.

I’m not going to give examples as this will get taken down as a TAAT, but I cannot be the only person to be fed up with all this. MN needs to do something about the racism, race baiting and general cultural ignorance. Unless the site is ONLY meant to cater to white people and, even then, I firmly believe that most posters of any race don’t want to see all that ugliness.

It’s getting to the stage where, as a Black person, I’m steeling myself before I log on. And knowing that half the time I report a comment, I won’t even get a token acknowledgement. This isn’t right. It wasn’t always like this.

You can apparently read their minds.

All my friends are gender critical, none of us are racist, sexist, xenophobic or homophobic

That is not what I am saying.

I am saying that there are people who are gender critical who are also racist, sexist or xenophobic.

It is not saying that gender critical are also racist,etc

I guess you don't associate with racist or sexist people.

Yeah, this went pretty much as expected.

@LoisLane66

You said:

As a white English woman I am sick to the back teeth of the constant divide between black and white individuals. There is nothing, NOTHING in the world that comes close to the deep rifts between those two races.

And in the same post, which you said is about a black / white divide, you said:

We have a right to expect people living in Britain to keep to our rules and laws but able to keep their own customs within certain boundaries as we expect to comply with the laws of any country we Brits visit.

Wow. You do realise that black British people are just as British as white British people? They're citizens not tourists. Your comment is so full of ignorance it's offensive.

You also used the 'we shouldn't see colour if we want equality' argument which is easy to say if you're not the one on the receiving end of judgement or abuse based on not being white.

@unsureatthispoint

Think of all the elements that some are working very hard to eradicate at the moment and you will perhaps find your answer

Can you name a few of these please?

I don't think it's getting worse. Every website has its bigots, I doubt they are bothering to read this.

I’ve not read the whole thread. The original premise of the thread is increasing racism on Mumsnet. I agree with this unreservedly. There is more racism, more bad faith arguments designed to contrived to cause controversy and more of it is left unchallenged or allowed to stand. I’ve said it before but it reads sometimes like an organised campaign from the far right with dog whistles if not loud hailers.

On the broader issues on this thread not all gender critical people are racist (and I say that as someone who disagrees with them). However plainly is a vent diagram with a large number of racists who are transphobic. So if you are gender critical - particularly if you are active on line - you tend to be operating in the same space.

@unsureatthispoint

Isn't this racist? What would be the problem if they didn't look like them?

Children having role models that they can identify with in different ways, including their race, is incredibly positive. Surely you can see that?

If girls grew up never seeing female doctors, they are less likely to believe it's possible for them to become a doctor. Less likely they would engage with the process needed to become a doctor.

Having a teacher a child relates to, identifies with and can look up to will help their engagement with the subject and education in general.

Do you also say 'what would be the problem' if there were no female STEM teachers and no females having STEM careers?

@monsteramunch absolutely that's what I was thinking earlier on with. I mean to actually type and post such things.... my mind boggles..
I think some posters don't even know that is offensive never mind darn right racist it's like some people are living in the 70s still.

She completely veered off topic by far. Nobody has broken any law and one particular group of British (Nor any other nationality) should be singled out.

I agree the "Peace and love" responses are a crap way of dealing with upset caused by racism. That needs to stop

Totally agree with you.

And it's not helped by white people insisting racism isnt a big a problem as it used to be.

Apparently we should be grateful for that.

Race DOES matter, why are you making out like people who have disagreed with you believe otherwise? They haven't. That isn't a gotcha. Race does matter and that's why having role models is important.

Saying 'your race shouldn't dictate how people treat you' is entirely different to saying
'Race doesn't matter'. This is the 'I thought we weren't mean to see colour' defence. And it's so disingenuous.

I would say that people who are GC and discussing gender/trans ideology in terms of the harm it can cause women and children, are no more likely to be racist or sexist or homophobic than anyone else. I would actually argue they’re less likely to be. These are people worried about safety and fairness in life for everyone on the whole.

Of course you’re get people who aren’t even really aware of the genuine reasons that so many of us are GC, yet make offensive comments about trans people. They’re just ignorant and probably more the sort of people that display phobic and truly offensive behaviour about anyone not like them. But those aren’t really the women on mumsnet having intelligent, informed discussions about gender in my experience.

But anyway, back to racism as this is what the thread is about.

No, I agree you cannot read someone's mind. So you can't say you know their choices are because of what they think about you, unless they tell you.

Actually, and I've said it before, I want you to see my colour. It's my heritage, why can't it be celebrated and acknowledged?

Ignoring my colour is just pretty fucking offensive to be honest.

Please tell me more about how you are not racist?!

I'm torn on this. I think misinformation should get deleted and personal attacks on other people. However I think it's quite useful to let some offensive posts stand. Why should it not be there for all to see and know that a particular person holds such nasty views? I like to know who I'm communicating with, or not, sometimes.

I would say that people who are GC and discussing gender/trans ideology in terms of the harm it can cause women and children, are no more likely to be racist or sexist or homophobic than anyone else. I would actually argue they’re less likely to be. These are people worried about safety and fairness in life for everyone on the whole

Yes - but given someone is racist, what do you think the chances are that they are also transphobic?

There are gender critical people out there. Most of them are not going to be racist. But if someone is racist, I bet there is a good chance they are gender critical.

MN hosts discussions about trans issues. Those racists who are gender critical are attracted to it.

Just like Brexit. Most people who supported Brexit are not racist. But I bet a lot of racists supported Brexit. And get attracted to Brexit threads.

I would say that a lot of people - and not just on the feminism boards, they are everywhere - have reached the point where they have decided that woman’s rights are not just important (which is correct) but so important that no other rights matter. Therefore any other type of protest must be bulldozed because the conversation isn’t about them.

Even worse is light hearted conversation that doesn’t involve any discussion about rights whatsoever, like the poor person who started a thread about “weird things in recent history that you can’t believe were acceptable” and found it gate crashed by people who didn’t just ignore the light hearted tag but were really rather nasty to her for being light hearted.

They wouldn’t hold their own in a proper debate on the feminist board about gender. I’d report them as I know others would. It’s doesn’t help our genuine concern.

Anyway, I’m not going to derail a thread about racism further, plenty of people aren’t listening as it is without me adding to that.

@torquewench

So who was it that made a famous speech that went:

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

This is such a tired and disingenuous attempt at a gotcha.

He said his dream racism wouldn't exist one day. He didn't say to ignore it in the meantime.

I can imagine that the MN demographic has changed a lot over the years since it started. Threads have appeared in the media, especially the Daily Mail and will have attracted a wider audience - who have their own views.

@gogohmm

Racist people exist but most people are like me and really don't understand why colour is even a consideration for people in 21st century Britain, we are all the same, let's show love not hate.

It is extraordinarily less likely to be a consideration if you are white.

It's either naive or disingenuous to say that colour isn't a consideration if you aren't on the receiving end of treatment based on your race.

Wait so we shouldn't be hugely concerned about racism in the UK because it's worse elsewhere?

Should we also not be hugely concerned about misogyny and violence against women and girls because it's worse elsewhere?

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet

Black people exchanging stories about the way they are treated by white people because of the colour of their skin is a legitimate and necessary discussion and we take a dim view of posts clearly intended to shut this down. Denying that colour exists could also imply that racism doesn't exist and posters, rightfully, find this kind of sentiment frustrating.

Nailed it, Becky. 👏