Page 3 | to think Kanye West's racism is going to lead to an increase in violence against Jews?

smokedsalm0n · 2022-12-02T11:03:04+00:00

Firstly, I am Jewish, no connection to Israel, I'm not Israeli (not that I need to qualify my post with that) and have lived in the UK all my life. So, after his recent rantings about loving Hitler, Nazis and the holocaust ([[https://torontosun.com/entertainment/celebrity/i-like-hitler-kanye-west-doubles-down-on-hate-speech-on-alex-jones-infowars-show]]) I'm feeling very scared and scared for my kids, especially reading recent threads like this: [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4662884-kanye-wests-harmful-views-tackling-antisemitism-at-school]] Kanye is very influential and popular with the younger generation and my Jewish children are already getting more racist comments said to their faces without any fear of retribution. I am genuinely scared for their physical safety. Jews shouldn't have to live in fear, its 2022 ffs not the 1930s!

JustDanceAddict · 02/12/2022 12:38

A lot of Jewish people don’t support the israeli government. Believing in a Jewish homeland is a completely different issue.

PleaseTakeItOff · 02/12/2022 12:38

There’s no denying that what he is saying is abhorrent. He’s been an absolute joke even with his milllenial fan base for several years now though. People didn’t vote for Trump because Kanye backed him and won’t be antisemitic because he’s a raving lunatic. He genuinely needs to be sectioned or something as he’s clearly very unwell.

CaveMum · 02/12/2022 12:40

Kanye is behaving appallingly and quite obviously needs help for his mental health, though obviously having mental health issues does not go hand in hand with antisemitism.

This is demonstrating exactly what David Baddiel raised in his book and documentary - hate speech directed at Jewish people is more tolerated and seen by “not as bad” by many in society.

I’m not Jewish myself but found it eye opening, I’d recommend people read the thread that sprung up in response to the programme, which inevitably attracted posters with anti-semetic views: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4682906-david-badiel-jews-dont-count-shocked?page=1

steaval · 02/12/2022 12:42

It's not just Kanye screaming into the void Dave Chappelle pretty much defended him on SNL.

JustDanceAddict · 02/12/2022 12:42

I really hope not. Who takes notice of the idiot, unless they already sing from that particular hymn sheet.
As a Jewish person I just can’t believe he can still get away with spouting his hatred, but anti-semitism will exist either with or without him. Maybe people knowing he’s mentally unstable will ‘help’ as they will know his views are completely ‘out there’.

FloydPepper · 02/12/2022 12:43

CaveMum · 02/12/2022 12:40

Kanye is behaving appallingly and quite obviously needs help for his mental health, though obviously having mental health issues does not go hand in hand with antisemitism.

This is demonstrating exactly what David Baddiel raised in his book and documentary - hate speech directed at Jewish people is more tolerated and seen by “not as bad” by many in society.

I’m not Jewish myself but found it eye opening, I’d recommend people read the thread that sprung up in response to the programme, which inevitably attracted posters with anti-semetic views: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4682906-david-badiel-jews-dont-count-shocked?page=1

There was a great thread on this, and the documentary

at least it started off great, then the anti semites popped up…

CarPoor · 02/12/2022 12:50

phoenixrosehere · 02/12/2022 12:30

Anyone who supports his rhetoric already had those feelings to begin with before he opened his mouth.

He’s losing more fans and people distancing themselves from him than gaining support of his views and the ones who mainly are agreeing with him are racists using him as an example to paint other people who happen to be black, like him.

People might have those feelings but know they can't say it and will keep quiet. With time anti-semitism dies out.

People aren't born racist or anti-semetic. They learn it through little bits here and there. Hearing someone prominent and famous get away with saying anti-semetic things will encourage those developing feelings, it plants another little seed in someone's mind. It encourages people to share their racist thoughts, because they see others get away with it

Dismissing Kanye as just some madman, or attention seeker Denies the harm that seeing or hearing repeated anti-semitism or racism in the media does

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 02/12/2022 13:02

Take Simon de Montfort, he expelled the Jews from Leicester when he was in power. Kicked them out of town. For being Jewish. What happens in the modern world, he gets a (so-called) university named after him

Jews were persecuted for what was called the blood libel - being responsible for teh death of Christ. That bit in the NT where they call out to Pilate that Christ's death be upon them and their children's children. It led to millenia of persecution and the fact that until the mid 1930s anti-semitism was institutionalised in pretty much all countries - it was in fact a respectable viewpoint and having Jewish friends and connections was looked on askance. It took WW2 to show the horrors that that stance led to.

And while de Montfort was responsible for the persection of Jews in England, it's thanks to him that we have a parliamentary democracy. Explanation of the name from tne university here.

www.dmu.ac.uk/campus/history/simon-de-montfort.aspx

Frankly, if you're never going to name buildings after people who did things that we now regard as reprehensible, everywhere would be called Thing Building or That University.

LoobyDop · 02/12/2022 13:03

JustDanceAddict · 02/12/2022 12:38

A lot of Jewish people don’t support the israeli government. Believing in a Jewish homeland is a completely different issue.

But also, there’s no exemption clause where antisemitism is ok if the subjects have different political views from you. Racism isn’t only unacceptable in some circumstances.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 02/12/2022 13:06

Echobelly · 02/12/2022 12:17

BTW, The whole 'Ooh, the entertainment industry is run by Jews' thing is just like the 'Ooh, Jews in banking' thing because yes, there are quite a lot of Jews is both. And the reason is, funnily enough, antisemitism.

Jews historically were banned on many places from owning land and from many jobs. But they were allowed to be money lenders, because people wanted someone to borrow money off and who they could then accuse collectively off being mean, money-obsessed & exploiting good Christians. And so Jews have long had involvement in finance because they were basically forced into it.

The entertainment industry, when it began to be a thing, was picked up by Jews because it wasn't seen as very respectable or 'Christian', so it was Jews who became some of the first entertainment entrepreneurs (my Dad basically did a PhD about this!) and hence began the strong Jewish entertainment industry relationships.

Worth knowing if you ever want to refute people's conspiracy ramblings.

Yes. Thank you for the historic context.

Stressedmum2017 · 02/12/2022 13:06

I mean have you actually seen the comments on social media about this? Out of the hundreds/thousands you tend to see one or two in support of Kanye that's is it. I think it's pretty much accepted this is due to a severe mental health breakdown.

HelpMeCope85 · 02/12/2022 13:06

Echobelly · 02/12/2022 11:23

I'm not particularly scared for my kids, but then we're not obviously Jewish, ie not Orthodox so we don't have any outward signs. I have occasionally worried that someone might shout something at us when we're walking to synagogue (or to our kids when they were still at primary school, which was Jewish). But I imagine it could increase targeting of more orthodox Jews and it does encourage online antisemitism.

What worries me is that we are such a small group (and people don't realise quite how small) that there are many, many people who have never met a Jewish person and I think it's then easy to forget we are people. I wonder if it might help to have some kind of social media/school campaign showing different Jewish people to help remind others of this! When you make certain comments or share certain memes, they need to know they are harming real people. And that if you don't know any Jews, it's not because we are secretive, or cliquey, or we think we're better than non-Jews, it's simply because we're a very small minority and mostly clustered around only a few places where there's the infrastructure for us to practice.

I’m not sure it’s only Orthodox Jews though. Trying to put in the politest way possible but at school/Uni we would always know if someone was Jewish. They didn’t tell us nor were they obviously practicing. I remember just all the casual racism. Not saying what was said, but how acceptable it is to assume something because someone is Jewish, or people would say well they would do/say that because they’re Jewish etc.

There is the covert and overt racism.

heartbroken22 · 02/12/2022 13:07

No one takes Kanye seriously.

Original poster

smokedsalm0n · 02/12/2022 13:08

Mountainpika · 02/12/2022 12:21

There are two issues here.

Anti-semitism is wrong. No question about that.
The Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians is utterly apalling.

The two issues become confused so people lump all Jews together as bullies although, of course, not all of them support the government's actions in Palestine.

And then there are people who just dislike others becuse they are a different colour or race. No excuse for that.

I've already said as clearly as I can - I am not Israeli, I have no link to Israel, my children aren't Israeli. I'm discussing racist comments directed at JEWS.

OP posts:

beguilingeyes · 02/12/2022 13:13

"We should look closer to home when criticising others. Take Simon de Montfort, he expelled the Jews from Leicester when he was in power. Kicked them out of town. For being Jewish. What happens in the modern world, he gets a (so-called) university named after him. In 1992! They're still operating under his name, offering higher education in the name of an antisemite."

Simon De Montfort? 1208-1265? That Simon De Montfort?! You want us to go back 800 years and compare him to something that was broadcast yesterday?!

CPL593H · 02/12/2022 13:15

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

No, it's hate speech.

mamacattiva · 02/12/2022 13:16

I asked my teenage DS last night if Kanye had an influence with any of his friends and he said that the general rule of thumb was that if you find yourself agreeing with literally anything Kanye says then you need to give your head a wobble. He’s kind of inadvertently teaching the kids how to not be a piece of shit, like the opposite of “what would Beyoncé do?”

Wheatandchaffinch · 02/12/2022 13:18

Mountainpika · 02/12/2022 12:21

There are two issues here.

Anti-semitism is wrong. No question about that.
The Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians is utterly apalling.

The two issues become confused so people lump all Jews together as bullies although, of course, not all of them support the government's actions in Palestine.

And then there are people who just dislike others becuse they are a different colour or race. No excuse for that.

No. For fucks sakes, just no.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 02/12/2022 13:19

beguilingeyes · 02/12/2022 13:13

"We should look closer to home when criticising others. Take Simon de Montfort, he expelled the Jews from Leicester when he was in power. Kicked them out of town. For being Jewish. What happens in the modern world, he gets a (so-called) university named after him. In 1992! They're still operating under his name, offering higher education in the name of an antisemite."

Simon De Montfort? 1208-1265? That Simon De Montfort?! You want us to go back 800 years and compare him to something that was broadcast yesterday?!

Bet he had iffy views on women's rights as well, the unreconstructed bastard.

Anyway, the uni explains why they called it De Montfort.

frozengoose · 02/12/2022 13:19

My teen ds does really like Kayne's music and it is still pretty popular in general in his circle.
But we are in Ye's home city which may well make a difference.

But even ds has moved away from him as his statements have got worse. Saying it is a shame but there are lots of other good artists to listen to.

None of the teens think what he is saying is okay.

Gradually the city is covering up the huge murals and starting to distance itself as a whole. Although not without some regret.

WalkingThroughTreacle · 02/12/2022 13:20

Time will tell. The optimist in me would like to think he will just show antisemitism up as being as ridiculous as he is. The realist in me worries that people who have a tendency towards bigotry and hate are none too fussy about who they chose to follow down that rabbit hole.

Naunet · 02/12/2022 13:20

I don’t see why it would. Did Donald Trump being president lead to a rise in sexual assault in the UK?

Watchthesunrise · 02/12/2022 13:25

It's universally accepted that whatever Kanye says is a bag of old shite. So, I wouldn't worry about it.

Wheatandchaffinch · 02/12/2022 13:26

Naunet · 02/12/2022 13:20

I don’t see why it would. Did Donald Trump being president lead to a rise in sexual assault in the UK?

This is not the same thing at all.

Echobelly · 02/12/2022 13:28

I do find it sad that OP has felt it necessary to frame her relationship to Israel though I do understand why she felt the need to do so.

I have sometimes had people pop up online challenging me about Israel bc I'm Jewish - now as it happens I support Palestinian self-determination and think Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people is abhorrent. But I never respond as such to these people because I do not owe anyone my views on Israel before I open my mouth because I'm Jewish, nor does anyone other Jew. I'm not going suggest I need to prove myself the 'right kind' of Jew to anyone. NB, this is something else to watch out for if you want to challenge antisemitism.

@HelpMeCope85 - oh absolutely there is that as well.