to think the census data on religion should mean some changes to how we view the Church of England in this country

[cakeorwine]

ONS data on religion released today

For the first time in a census of England and Wales, less than half of the population (46.2%, 27.5 million people) described themselves as “Christian”, a 13.1 percentage point decrease from 59.3% (33.3 million) in 2011; despite this decrease, “Christian” remained the most common response to the religion question.

“No religion” was the second most common response, increasing by 12.0 percentage points to 37.2% (22.2 million) from 25.2% (14.1 million) in 2011.

You can find out about your area here

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

An interesting map is available - you can zoom in to local areas
The number of Christians is falling. Still a high percentage but less than half the population of England and Wales say they are Christian.

Christianity could mean Catholicism, C of E and other Christian faiths.

So should this mean we look at 'the State Religion', having Bishops in the House of Lords and the link between the Monarch being the Head of the Church of England. Basically - look at distestablishing the Church of England from the State.

If people think nothing will happen to them if they behave immorally then why does not being moral matter?

Don't you have a conscience?

Not sure if your making some kind of point, or if you actually believe that God will unleash a plague on us for doing a census?

@HardRock I did, and all those who know me. To cut this short- if you’re one of those who truly thinks you can’t be moral without god and god is the only thing stopping people going on a killing spree then I’m very glad you in particular are religious. I have committed exactly as many atrocities as I wish, which is zero. The concept of morality and what we as a society owe to each other interests me greatly and I have managed all that as an atheist raised by atheists. Cheers.

Getting arrested and punished is what happens to people if they commit crimes.

Or society judges them.

Not some imaginary dude in the sky.

The bible was written by man and any moral teachings contained within it are the work of man. No need to bring any Gods into it at all. Religion was just a control mechanism required to put fear of reprisals into people in less enlightened times.

If only people were moral because it’s the right thing to do. But that’s not how human nature works.

When faced with the choice between doing what’s right and what easy - what do you think most people choose?

And also, we have a well developed justice system and forensic science.

Your faith in the purity of the justice system and the infallibility of forensic science is cute.

The justice system has better ways of attaining evidence. But that doesn’t mean it has developed to the point of being perfect.

Goes back to power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. You’re forgetting how the justice systems can still be corrupted… money is power and people can be bought. So human emotions such as guilt are still significant in keeping people in check.

When faced with the choice between doing what’s right and what easy - what do you think most people choose?

IME mostly what's right, and overwhelmingly what's legal.

Guilt and empathy (etc) doesn't go away if you are an atheist.

It's been shown that many animals can feel guilt. None of them have any idea of what religion is.

Religion doesn't create or define morality, it just put a pretend consequence onto some actions and then told us that if we are really, really sorry we get forgiven anyway.

But people who commit crimes also try covering up. In cases where they get away with the cover up most their life and don’t suffer any consequences then all that’s left is their guilt…

Deathbed confessions are a real thing. Because that’s when the fear of the “dude in the sky” who might know the truth kicks into gear - and the dying person has no where else to hide. Meeting the maker is a scary prospect… and rightfully so.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathbed_confession

I agree that forgiving too easily is a problem.

The problem is that you don’t know if it’s a pretend or real consequence until death. And no one has returned from the dead to confirm one way or the other.

So, it is a useful tool whether true or not to keep people in check.

In your experience. Can you present examples?

In my experience, they do what’s easy if they think they will get away with it.

What percentage of people in the census do you think were C of E?

The C of E will continue.

Just not seen as part of the State. Probably better for the C of E as well

Morality comes from what people invent. It doesn't come from God because God doesn't exist and so if you take God away you still have morality. This idea that atheists can't be moral because they don't have the threat of a hell we don't believe in hanging over us is utterly absurd.

I don't think it's a good idea to do that. I think we could do with a long while of not tinkering with the system. Not a good idea to make any fundamental change at the moment. Just let it calm down while we see what the war and climate change and brexit and cost of living bring us.

@HardRock
I could 'present examples' but that would be very dull and worthy, and based on previous comments you probably wouldn't believe me anyway. So as there doesn't seem to be any moral imperative I'll spare the thread. Glad I have a different circle of friends and acquaintances to you!

But the point is you based your views on your own circle… and society is not your small bubble.

It’s dangerous and naive to think everyone is only like the people you know.

Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. And the same goes with morality.

@HardRock in the context of this thread your stance requires several things to be true. Mainly it depends on the existence of the supernatural, in the face of all the evidence. It also requires that the particular version of the supernatural that happens to be true is one that was created by a horny king and scheming politicians less than 500 years ago. It doesn't seem likely to me, but I'm sure you have the necessary evidence.

But I don't think there is any compelling evidence that through history and different cultures religious ones have behaved any better than modern democracies with justice and policing systems. Rather the reverse.

Please prove that God doesn’t exist.

Billions of people have believed in God for almost all of human existence. Are they all wrong? If so, why?

Interesting debate indeed …. I do think separation of church and state is desirable.

Personally my mind boggles at the idea that God made man in his image …… it tells me that the omnipotent one has many issues indeed and it’s more likely that man created God in his own image…..

The whole Jesus rebrand was a bit of a fuck up - just encouraged a whole new layer of gas-lighting.

Complicated, ain’t it?

I get what you mean about the Church of England. Reasons for it were not exactly moral. And I agree.

How ironic would it be if God’s the one who is behind the Church of England’s demise?!

I do worry about what will happen to vulnerable people if that moral force isn’t there. Perhaps this is happening because the Church of England is not the moral force it claims to be. But who else is there?!

Please prove that God doesn’t exist.

How about you prove he does, logically better that way round than proving a negative.

Oh... anyway which 'God'? Do we need to prove all the various gods, goddesses and other supernatural beings believed in don't exist?

Why are you suggesting that the justice system and policing system are separate from religion? They both swear their affirmations and oaths to the head of the CofE.

Are you honestly also saying the policing system is without corruption and can be trusted wholeheartedly?!

Again, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Royals have religion drummed into them, plus they love 'rules' generally don't they. I'm sure William will keep up the charade, even if he doesn't have that deep faith in the way the Queen did.

I was very cheered by the news this morning

Why? That's a very nasty and simplistic statement to make. The fabric of our society is disintegrating before our eyes and you are 'cheered'? One of the few elements that will help humanity to keep things together is religion (any religion)

I think the existence of God is intellectually unsolvable for humans. We just don’t have capacity for it.

But I, along with billions of other people now and throughout human existence, have experienced God’s existence. And that’s something that can’t be taken away by the intellectual debate.

God’s existence is self-evident in the complexity of the planet and life. Do you really think it’s all by chance?