WIBU to take DD's advent calendar away to teach her to say thank you

[ItsNotReallyChaos]

My DD (5) is articulate and has full understanding of basic manners but she's driving me mad at the moment because she won't reply 'hello' if someone says hello to her, won't say 'bye' as we leave somewhere.

I've just given her her advent calendar and she didn't say thank you.

She's not a spoilt child in terms of material stuff. I only really buy presents for birthday/Christmas, with the occasional book bought in between times but she just never seems grateful to receive things. You'd think she received stuff on a daily basis if you saw her not-bothered response to being given something nice.

I feel like I've failed her as by now, hello, goodbye and thank you should be automatic.

Any advice?

And would it be totally unreasonable to take the Advent calendar away to try to teach her the hard way to say thank you!

Exactly, punishing her would be a complete overreaction.

There is such an obsession on here with pleases and thank yous - tone and overall behaviour are much more important to me.

Keep gently prompting, and praise her when she gets it right. She'll get there.

This is awful! So many of these posts recently
Kids are kids just let them be, model behaviour you'd 'like' 5 yr olds have so much to navigate now, just say thanks that's nice every time she engaged with you . And she will model that behaviour back.

If they don't please do not make a big deal out of it 😀

How is she in general with speaking to unfamiliar adults?

I have a DC who has selective mutism, they didn’t talk to unfamiliar adults at all, also wouldn’t speak to g parents, uncles aunties etc until
around the age of 4. They speak freely a lot of the time now (7) but really struggle with thank you, hello, goodbye and sorry, it’s common with selective mutism. It’s because the use of these phrases put particular focus directly on the child and makes them feel anxious.

if your daughter is generally ok with other communication I would suggest just continuously modelling, 5 is still young. I think the removal of the Advent calendar would be quite harsh as it’s a whole months punishment

Maybe she doesn’t enjoy receiving a gift? Some kids prefer to give or it could be asd? Xx

Poor little thing doesn't need to be punished like that.

Do you lead by example? Are you saying thank you to her if she passes you something for example?

She's 5 she will forget and just needs a gentle reminder each time not harsh, way over the top punishment.

They speak freely a lot of the time now (7) but really struggle with thank you, hello, goodbye and sorry, it’s common with selective mutism. It’s because the use of these phrases put particular focus directly on the child and makes them feel anxious.

Exactly that. I had a friend at uni who communicated completely normally until he was ever asked his name. He couldn't say it. Clearly something about the attention specifically on him and asking for something personal to him, rendered him unable to speak.

Obviously, being young and being his friends, we'd cover for him and jump in with "oh, you don't know Dave?" Or something along those lines.

*Oh for crying out loud.
Kids misbehave.

Doesn't mean they have anxiety / mutism / autism / ADHD or whatever else is so easily thrown around on here. There really is no need to try and label a child the second manners slip out the window.*

Actually, kids with selective (as in situational) mutism are very likely indeed to have difficulty with "basic politeness" words, as these are the words they will have repeatedly been placed under immense pressure to say. They are exceptionally high "communication load" words.

Communication load is the idea that not all speech is equally difficult. If you think about it, you know this; for example if you had to speak to a colleague about their personal hygiene you'd rehearse, consider your words carefully, feel anxious etc. That's just you experiencing high communication load. People with SM are way more sensitive to "risk" and "pressure" in speech.

OP it would be sensible to ask in her education setting how her communication is developing. This could be early signs of communication stress. Ask specifically if she speaks to adults and children, if she initiates any speech or only replies, and if she joins in fully and freely. In the event that you are picking up a communication issue, it's much much easier to support early on. The national charity SMiRA has a great website with lots of info on.

Thank you to everyone that has responded.

I didn't take it away from her but I was considering it. I won't and I knew deep down that I wouldn't but I was frustrated and it made me feel like trying to teach her the lesson the hard way.

I've taken the more constructive replies on board and will in particular think about the negative effects of me putting pressure on her to say expected greetings etc.

How some mumsnetters love to talk about 'punishing' little children. The way to teach children is by 'modelling' good behaviour and never forgetting to praise and praise a child who remembers to say thank you. Look at how schools promote behaviour management. It is always positive. A child who constantly is criticised learns to not say anything for fear of getting into trouble.

Is she shy?

I'm autistic and really struggled with hello/goodbye and with showing gratitude for gifts as a child. Usually it was due to feeling completely overwhelmed. Really liking and being grateful for the gift could actually make it harder for me to react appropriately. Likewise, being really happy to see someone or sad to leave them.

Was constantly being told I was a selfish, rude and ungrateful child, but as someone mentioned above, there's nothing selective about selective mutism. Situational mutism is the better name.

None of this is anything I'd have been able to articulate at 5 yrs old.

I've since learned that for some people it's not just about manners either. They really want/need gratitude.

Certainly not saying the OP's DD is autistic. Just sharing an alternative perspective on 'bad manners'.

And yes, confiscating the child's advent calendar is disproportionate.

Is she shy?

With some people she is and others she isn't.

However there are kids she'll join in playing with in the playground but if they try to talk to her on the way home from school she won't engage at all.

On playdates she seems as confident as her peers.

Children have to mean it when they say thank you rather than being scared.
Children are not born knowing this stuff she is only 5.

She's still learning!!

One of my dd is very good at naturally Sharing,she was born that way... the other isn't mean but has issue's Sharing. She's still learning,she's 15.

One DD is very empathic...the other isn't.
One is good at tidying room...one isn't. We are all still learning. They are who they are and I'm sure she will be very naturally good at other things and needs time to learn others.

Good lord, most adults need reminding about basic manners.

It's not December 1st yet. Why have you given the advent calendar already?

It's not December 1st yet. Why have you given the advent calendar already?

It didn't occur to me that there's anything wrong with it sitting on the mantelpiece for a day or two ahead of the 1st.

Well she’s got 24 days with the calendar to practice surely? 😃

I always found at that age my DS had beautiful manners at school or clubs but rarely said P&TY to us. It’s only now aged 10 and getting a bit of maturity that’s he’s including us in this. So you might have to be patient a bit longer!

Please don't do that, she needs to feel loved and you can make it part of the solution - ask your OH to get an advent calendar from your daughter and then use it to reach - each time you open a window or chocolate say 'thank you' to her, and use it in other situations as many times as you can. It'll sink in!

teach, not reach!

Here you are but you can't start it yet. 🙄

Shes 5. She also mirrors adult behaviour that she sees. Maybe your own manners are a bit, awry, OP?

And just be careful it doesn't become so automatic that you start saying it to visiting senior management after they give their sandwich order in the the work canteen and never said thank you to the staff 😳

They, even senior management, do get it eventually.

My 4 and 6 year olds are incredibly polite and have wonderful manners and that's because it's been drummed into them from a young age!

If they act rude or ungrateful they are removed from the situation or the gift is taken away.

I don't make them hug or kiss but "thank you" is just common courtesy.

Not a lot of help but this has been an interesting read. Have some similar issues with my 4yr old particularly around hello/bye and sorry and speaking to school friends when leaving or arriving at school (that I’ve seen her talk
absolutely fine with in the playground). It’s like she freezes, head down, can’t even make eye contact. She was incredibly ‘shy’ when she was younger especially with adults and I had wondered about selective mutism then but she has gradually grown out of this but useful to see it may still be playing a part. We also live in a non English speaking country but speak English at home and I see selective mutism can be more common in bilingual kids.

I think you’ll find I haven’t said what you appear to have leapt to. I certainly haven’t labelled anyone. I’ve suggested it is something to consider. I’m aware children “misbehave”. In my experience, with my children, there is usually a reason behind it. I find supporting my children’s emotional needs and then discussing their behaviour has always worked well. I’m not saying my way is The Way but it is my experience and worked for my family - so is what I have added to the this thread. A lot of the behaviours labelled “naughty” in young children would be important skills in a less artificial (cave dwelling) set up so it feels important to me that the behaviour isn’t labelled naughty and that instead children are taught this is how our society/ our family does things and what they view as appropriate behaviour. I hate feeling “controlled” by other people and I did as a child too. The idea that an adults get to control children and call their natural behaviours “misbehaviour” rather than helping them with the emotions behind it irritates me no end. The way I see it, adults often criticise children for behaviour they do themselves in a more adult form.