Apparently I'm "old fashioned and anti-feminist"

[MVDC]

Because I told my friend who's thinking about TTC that she should seriously consider getting married first, even if it's just a register office job.

Apparently that makes me puritanical and woman shaming. Have directed her to the 4 threads I've read so far this morning where women had kids unmarried and are now getting completely screwed by their partners as the relationship breaks down.

I'm really, really angry. Not so much at my friend as at society who's convinced women that "cool girls don't need marriage" and I'm just... My coffee isn't Irish enough.

The thread isn’t about you.

I know this would not apply to most women, but if you want to take a job abroad then many times you can’t bring an unmarried partner with you. You get a work visa for you, and that often allows family visa for spouses, civil partners, children to accompany you abroad. But most countries do not have a boyfriend or girlfriend visa. Same applies if your partner gets a job abroad, if you’re not married or in a civil partnership with him you cannot get a visa to go with him.

There are loads of grey areas here.. loads of woman on here have said that as they were the wealthier party it was not in their interests to get married. The wealthier party always has more to lose.
This is not about getting married but it's about most partners in the relationship having the ability to support them selves independently of needs be.
This is more about woman who choose to be be sahp for a long number of years which massively limits their earning potential if they need to re enter the work place. This applies regardless of whether their partner is a high earner or not.
I wish more woman would take all these things into consideration before giving up their jobs .

You don't sound anti-feminist at all and your friend sounds very naive. Marriage and it's laws was created mostly to protect women and children from being abandoned. Unless you have a good job and intend to have no children moving in together is fine. Moving in together, having children or working part time etc.. with no marriage papers is madness and numerous threads on mumsnet prove that.

perhaps you should let her know that what you meant was "have you thought about the legal stuff".

I can't fathom it but some people don't see marriage as a legal matter. She needs to think about what works if they break up, which might be marriage or avoiding marriage, if she's the one better off financially.

i can't imagine associating marriage with morals but I guess she thinks you have.

I’ve also worked for organisations who refused to pay relocation costs for unmarried partners and their children unless you provide a copy of a marriage or civil partnership certificate which then means his children are formally classed as your step children. So not only would half your family have to find a way to get visas on their own, they’d have to pay their way to go with you to a job abroad. Whereas if you’re married or in a civil partnership the visas and relocation costs are all taken care of.

Plus, once there, the costs do not stop- any employer benefits are denied to half your family. Housing allowance, health insurance, education allowance you get none of these benefits for a boyfriend/girlfriend and their children. It’s only for you and your children. Unless you are married or in a civil partnership, then you get the full employer benefits for all of you as a family unit.

There's nothing wrong with it. You can do as you please and I'd probs prefer to be married in this situation.

However, some might see pandering to the patriarchy for personal financial benefit as the actions of a 'handmaiden'.

What the fuck? So you think all women who get pregnant without being married are not very bright or are secretly devastated because their partners won't marry them?

I'm a week off giving birth and not married, entirely my choice. I don't want to get married. I see threads on MN weekly about how silly and foolish unmarried women are to have kids with their partners and it gets boring. And yes, I find it anti-feminist. It's just another stick to beat women with.

Its more about maintaining your financial independence than being married.

Depending on circumstances, marriage may offer the best financial protection.

But its never as good as maintaining your own decent earning power.

There are plenty of threads from women feeling financially trapped in miserable marriages that prove that.

Even if asked (which clearly doesnt mean shit on my relationship and lifestyle choices) about having a baby that in no way was asking 'should I get married'... OP was straight up rude.

@rickandmorts well that entirely depends on your financial situation and on whether you've based your decision on actual research into the legal implications as opposed to flimsy emotional reasons such as "I don't need a piece of paper"

It's not clear from your posts OP whether you explained why you thought your friend should get married before having a baby.

Maybe she thought you meant because it is "sinful" to have a child "out of wedlock" or something ridiculous and old fashioned like that? I am assuming you didn't mean that, but that you were referring to an inequality in their financial standing which would leave your friend vulnerable if the relationship broke down?

I think you should contact her and apologise for any offence, and clarify if you hadn't already done so.

How was OP expected to give her honest opinion "no, I don't think a baby now would be a wise idea" but not state a reason? What was she supposed to say if the friend followed that up with "but why?"?

for all you know it could be... OPs friend clearly took it in the same vein so it seems pretty relivant.

It’s not for personal benefit though. Currently marriage is to protect both partners by dividing up marital assets 50/50 and adjusting this depending on things like where children will live, disability of a partner, any ring fenced assets not part of marital assets and so on. It’s not for personal benefit, it’s for personal protection of both parties.

Oh my god are people that dense they think people wan't their honest opinion? (based on their beliefs rather than fact)

Everyone knows you don't say shit like this when a friend is excitedly telling you about a huge life decision shes making, she looking for SUPPORT.

Some people lack basic social awareness.

*There's nothing wrong with it. You can do as you please and I'd probs prefer to be married in this situation.

However, some might see pandering to the patriarchy for personal financial benefit as the actions of a 'handmaiden'*

I suppose it comes down to which matters more, principles or pragmatism. As far as I can see the patriarchy (however you define that) is here to stay and I've no intention of impoverishing myself for a principle. They don't pay the bills.

how does marriage give you “fundamentally more rights”? For someone like that poster it gives her she the right to take her hard earned cash.

@mam0918 if you don't want to hear honest opinions maybe don't ask people how they feel about your life choices?

If you think it's such a great idea presumably you don't need outside validation...

I think people forget that marriage confers legal rights and obligations, it's not "just a piece of paper". My mum (who never liked any of my brother's girlfriends) was forever telling him that if they lived with him they'd be entitled to half his house, income, common law marriage blah blah blah but it's just not true. I worked in the family law department of a firm of solicitors during one tirade/girlfriend era and asked a solicitor if it was true (even though I already knew that it wasn't, but she was so adamant I started to doubt myself). It's not. If they break up then she's in a more vulnerable position if she's unmarried. Personally I wouldn't have had children without being married first but that's probably a combination of my upbringing, and having seen (through work) how different the situations are. Relationship breakdowns with DC are never easy regardless of married/not married but if you're married not only do both parties have more rights but there is a system in place to help you navigate the breakup during what is usually a very stressful and upsetting time. That being said, those worst off that I saw via work were those who gave up work or reduced hours unmarried to look after DC (whether through choice or because DC had special needs). If she's planning on working full time after DC and thinks it won't affect her career progression then she probably won't be bothered about spousal maintenance etc, but she needs to know that she won't have any rights if it goes wrong.

I agree though that their needs to be more awareness that marriage is a legal and financial contract - its just seen as a romantic/ party thing by most people. And its not really. Its a legal contract that confers responsibilities, rights, powers and limitations.

There should be some sort of free course that everyone could do online so that they can understand the relative merits of marriage vs co-habitation!.

Of course it does and noone knows my financial situation and what I'd be set to lose if I got married which is why I get so bored of these threads. Even you implying I don't want to get married because of 'flimsy emotional reasons' is irritating and sexist. I never hear of men being told they are too emotional.

@rickandmorts
Congratulations on your pregnancy.

Apologies if you have already thought and sorted all the below and apologies for bringing morbid thoughts to a happy time.

are you in a relationship with the babies father?

If so does your he know that if your baby is born very unwell he can’t consent to their medical treatment until you are well enough to register the birth? I couldn’t imagine not giving DP the same parental responsibility to dd than I have. If something goes very very wrong is everything all set up wills wise so that your DP inherits enough from you to allow him to raise your child(ren) alone and gives him control of the funeral process? Is he listed as your next of kin on the hospital records? Are you aware that if you become very mentally unwell after the birth of the child then he will not be your nearest relative with regards to the mental health act. Have you thought about what will happen if your baby is not well and your are unable to return to work. If your DP is the one taking off the time to care for the children is he financially provided for

if you are not in a relationship with the father and don’t wish them to be involved in the raising of the child is everything in place in case of your death to provide for your DC and your wishes of who looks after them in that situation etc?

it’s got nothing to do with romance, and not much to do with feminism but a lot to do with being a responsible parent and partner. I was the higher earner when I married DP, marriage protected him at that point - when I chose to share my life with him I then wanted to do all I could to protect him and any future kids we have

Is she the lower earner?

Marriage only benefits the poorer spouse. It's anti-feminist to assume that's got to be the woman, but it's simply factual if you happen to know your mate is worse off and has a worse earning potential!

Direct her to the relationships threads where the smug marrieds realise that marriage means very little and they should have prioritised keeping work/wage/financial security.