Londoner? ULEZ expansion - wrong time?

[GrubzUp]

I like Sadiq Khan, in general I applaud green initiatives.

However it's been announced today that the original inner London low emission zone is to be expanded into outer London - meaning that if you have an older, more polluting vehicle it will cost you £12.50 every time you drive it anywhere in London (inside the M25 I think).

I live in outer London. There are a LOT of older, non ULEZ compliant vehicles on the road round here. At the moment, people don't need to be compliant for local trips, because unless they're heading inside the North / South Circular Rd, they are fine in their older cars.

I look out in the street and see my neighbours' cars: the people who tend to drive older vehicles are the young, the old, the disabled and the poor.

AIBU to say that hitting them with a big new tax for driving anywhere in the middle of a cost of living crisis is the WRONG time? If they can't afford a newer model they certainly can't afford to pay £12 every time they take it off the drive. I feel bad for these people. How are they going to afford it?

Note that public transport here is not what it is in inner London, you can't just "jump on the tube".

during covid the plan was to extend the congestion zone

where does all the money go from the charges it hasn’t eased traffic

of course it’s the wrong time maybe taxing central London buildings that are empty would be far better but there is never much incentive to close these loop holes that many investors make millions from

@Devoutspoken my name is not Lizzy and, no, people having chemo shouldn’t be getting on public transport particularly in a pandemic, neither should people who have recently had hours of major surgery and can barely stand. You clearly live in central London and have no fucking concept of what it would be like
to travel significant distances to attend hospital appointments.

My mum had major surgery on her ankle at UCLH. Was in a cast from toes to above her knee. I'm not sure how you think she'd manage without us driving into Central London to pick her up. Public transport just isn't feasible for large swathes of the population, especially the elderly and disabled.

So how do people without cars attend hospital?

I live in London and have attended UCLH and other central hospitals fairly regularly at times. I've always taken the tube/bus, except after abdominal surgery, when I splashed out on taxis (I use taxis about twice a year otherwise, the tube gets me where I need to be almost all the time). I even took the tube going into hospital to give birth. My mum has walking problems (walks with a stick) and goes to hospital for regular appointments, but she still uses the tube most of the time as it's the most convenient way to travel (and it's free as she's over 60). As I disabled person who needs good access to hospitals, I would never live too far out of the centre that I couldn't access them by public transport.

@blupyjamas you live in London, that’s the point. Many people have to attend hospitals in London but do not live in London. That’s because they can’t get specialist care locally. For example, when I was pregnant with my youngest child I needed Doppler scans. Couldn’t get them locally. Choice was London or Cambridge, 40 miles in either direction.

In my FIL case, he had to have chemo in London. He lives outside of the M25. A taxi was over £100 return. So my DH drove him. There was no way that my DH was going to allow his 79 year old father take a train and tube whilst having chemo during the middle of a COVID pandemic.

@Devoutspoken well if they live in central London, presumably a taxi is a bit more affordable than if they live outside the M25!! Patient transport is sometimes an option - but my FIL was told it wasn’t available for him….presumably because he doesn’t live in London! It really is a challenge for people
who are seriously ill and need to attend a hospital far from where they live. If my DH wasn’t able to drive his father, then FIL would have had to get a train and tube whilst having chemo in the middle of a COVID pandemic. Stinks doesn’t it?!

Mind you, you would probably be happy for him to cycle across the M25 on a fucking cargo bike.

the action to make people drive less is better cheaper public transport.

You can make public transport as good as you like but some people still need the car keys prising from their cold, dead hands.

Lozzybear, I don't own a cargo bike and I wouldn't advise cycling across the m25 in one, nor did i say anyone should. I am just saying there are people, some of whom have commented on this thread, who do manage to live without a car.

Thing is that cleaner air is a more important issue than every single one of the excuses people have come up with in this thread for not expanding ULEZ. Children are dying because of car pollution. Though with the general attitude towards climate change on MN I can't say I'm surprised.

If you don't think ULEZ is a good thing, I'm all ears as to your own ideas as to how we decrease pollution (specifically to London) and combat/mitigate climate change more generally.

I’ve suggested one. Raise money on EVERY car journey, maybe a few quid each time. Make people think twice about journeys. Impacts evenly, has a greater chance of reducing congestion. This ulez is actually making people in some cases increase car use, they’ve invested in a new car and get their use out of it.
Surely also tackling the daily short journey 4x4 users would make sense, if targeting those who occasionally drive their older car.
Invest the higher return on more bus routes and better cycling infrastructure

Backlog, obviously central London is easier to live in without a car, but people in outer London also do. But if you need a car, you need a car

I didn't have a car for the 14 years I lived in central London. There was no need for one as the transport links were excellent. I even bought my newborn home on the bus!

But the outer London suburbs just don't have the same level of transport. I'm simply not going to spend 45 minutes going somewhere on public transport that I can get to in 10 minutes by car. I don't have that sort of time in life! Another example is collecting post from our royal mail depot. 10 minutes by car. My husband went and collected a parcel there using public transport - 20 minute walk to tube, a few stops on tube, then 30 minute walk to depot. Then repeat to get home.

@Devoutspoken actually you asked why anyone would drive into central London and I gave you a perfectly reasonable example.

All this talk about central London. Romford is in the new ulez, I’m sure many will argue until they’re blue in the face it’s an Essex town. People driving from villages around Brentwood will have to pay the charge to get to their local hospital.
People are far far less bothered about Central London. It’s getting around outer London, or those that need to cross the M25 for work/ school/ hospitals/ services in areas without the good public transport.

It's just not practical in outer London. It's ok if you want to go into central London. I would always travel by train into central London or even into local town centre. But anywhere else just isn't practical. To visit other towns in outer London you often have to get a train into London and a train back out again as the transport doesn't go round the edges. Or multiple buses. So journeys that take 25 mins in a car can take 1 hour 30 mins or more by train.

Also, as we live on the very edge of outer London we also regularly travel outside of the M25 where public transport is even more patchy.
The ULEZ is unfair on many people. Really need to give far longer for people to change their cars or extend the scrappage schemes to help those of us who work but can't afford a new car.

I listened to the deputy Mayor of London defending the ULEZ on Jeremy Vine the other day. She said that 95% of cars owned by those living in the extended ULEZ zone are compliant. I find that very hard to believe given the scale of the outcry from those who will have to change cars/vans. And totally misses the point that it affects loads of people who live just outside the new zone, but who will have to drive into it regularly.

She also trotted out the line about the scrappage scheme so people won't be out of pocket. Totally missing the point that this doesn't help all those people who aren't on benefits (which you have to be to be eligible) but who are struggling to make ends meet during the cost of living crisis. And totally missing the point that it impacts people who live outside, but work inside the zone. Presumably the scrappage scheme won't apply to them either.

One person who rang in was a painter/decorator who was nearly in tears at the prospect of having to change his van, which he said he just can't afford to do. He lives on the very edge of the extended zone. Another caller said she lives in Kent and visits her elderly mother, who lives just inside the new zone, almost daily. She can't afford to change her car or pay the fine.

I don’t think this is right. We are in outer London and DH had a non-compliant car, we knew years ago that the expansion was coming and had until 2023 to get sorted.

I’ve had my car since 2008 and it’s compliant and only worth £1,000.

As someone who lives in the expanded zone, I don’t give a shit about the people driving in. They can get compliant, just like we have had to.

I don’t drive into Central London because of the Congestion Charge, I don’t expect those who live there to sympathise with me.

Or maybe I was thinking of planned expansion to north circular and south circular, sorry.

It's not news.

We've all known that this was due to happen for YEARS.
The ULEZ plan was anounced back in 2015, and it was originally due to happen in 2020, but was then delayed.
As a Londoner, I was well aware that this was on the horizon. No surprise at all.