Londoner? ULEZ expansion - wrong time?

[GrubzUp]

I like Sadiq Khan, in general I applaud green initiatives.

However it's been announced today that the original inner London low emission zone is to be expanded into outer London - meaning that if you have an older, more polluting vehicle it will cost you £12.50 every time you drive it anywhere in London (inside the M25 I think).

I live in outer London. There are a LOT of older, non ULEZ compliant vehicles on the road round here. At the moment, people don't need to be compliant for local trips, because unless they're heading inside the North / South Circular Rd, they are fine in their older cars.

I look out in the street and see my neighbours' cars: the people who tend to drive older vehicles are the young, the old, the disabled and the poor.

AIBU to say that hitting them with a big new tax for driving anywhere in the middle of a cost of living crisis is the WRONG time? If they can't afford a newer model they certainly can't afford to pay £12 every time they take it off the drive. I feel bad for these people. How are they going to afford it?

Note that public transport here is not what it is in inner London, you can't just "jump on the tube".

I'm saying that this decision has been made precisely because it would remove the oldest, most polluting vehicles off the road.

As you point out, this may affect elderly people who are doing a small number of journeys. And it would affect those who ran old vehicles because they were cheap.

Those groups are "bearing the burden" because economically they are probably contributing less but their vehicles damage the environment and pollute more.

Driving to the gym a mile away? You do know cycling us a form of exercise, as is walking

Backlog, I would have thought not having the elderly or less abled sitting in traffic jams for hours would be a good thing

Read responses from councils. Romford estimates in theirs for example they have around 9500 carer jobs, earning around 18-19k. A huge proportion are using old cars.

Economic importance isn’t as simplistic as ‘earns a lot’.

It’s telling, that despite their green agendas, most outer London councils are opposed to this. Bexley, Bromley, Hillingdon, Harrow, Romford, Croydon, Epping Forest so far have either formally opposed it or said it’s flawed/ raised concerns they want addressed. Basically every affected council is opposing it due to poor transport, lack of evidence or the wider impact.

Why do you think they would?

I keep seeing references on here to the poorest being hardest hit. This isn't true as the poorest don't have cars. The poorest will benefit though as a result of cleaner air, fewer cars on the road and quicker bus journeys as a result.

I live just on the border of the extended zone (Surrey side, the Greater London border is less than a mile from my house) and drive an 11-year-old Ford Focus which is compliant and probably worth less than £1k. Even my previous 2001 reg car was compliant and I sold that on for less than £100 - there are cheap compliant cars available.

drive an 11-year-old Ford Focus which is compliant and probably worth less than £1k

No way is an 11 year old focus worth less than a grand...

It’s easy to dismiss people with sweeping statements, but it’s not true just because you proclaim it.

A single mother, working as a home carer and running a car for her job is going to be amongst the poorest in London by some way. 18-19k if full time, her life will be shit and stressful without any wiggle room.

A parent of a disabled child or elderly person running a car as their only means of getting out is not excluded from the poorest bracket. Neither is a father who is a low paid labourer with tools in his van.

There are so many reasons why poor people are pushed into car use. My friend for example never ran one until she and her disabled child, one of 4, where housed by the council in an estate with horrific transport links. When you get given emergency accommodation you take it, even if it’s a converted office on the outskirts of Harlow or an estate by the Lea that’s 25min walk from a bus stop.

I can't speak for others but ULEZ in my area finally forced me to get a clearner car, so even if it is just a cynical tax grab it worked on me.

Cleaner air ultimately benefits more people

E-Cargo bikes are great for the comfortably off middle+ classes. But those of us in terraced housing, or flats, where do we keep a massive cargo bike?!

And for someone saying I was bitching about a restaurant 10 minute drive away. If you actually read, you will see it's actually my GP / blood tests I was bitching about, not the restaurant. Restaurants / high street shops near are are losing money as people can no longer quickly pop to them. But receiving healthcare is a lot more of an issue and more important. My local hospital is 3 buses and well over an hour on public transport. Or a 20 minute drive. Blood test, 10 minute drive or 40ish minutes on bus / walk. I've not even worked out how to get to GP on public transport as it's simply too confusing.
And you also made massive "able bodied" assumptions.

@LiveIngSun are schemes to help the poorest like in your example above. Of the relatively small number of non-compliant vehicles, most are likely to be diesel vans used by trades. The carer/ single mother/ disabled examples will of course be used as reasons against the scheme but will be in a minority.

Harlow is not in London so irrelevant in this case. It's not the Mayor of London's job to look after Harlow residents.

Epping Forest isn't a London Borough, but will be covered by expanded ULEZ. So by your reckoning they shouldn't be affected by the things that the mayor does?

@JusteanBiscuits Will it? Based on the map the majority of it seems to be excluded... tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ulez-expansion-2023

Oh interesting!! I hadn't seen that map. Now wondering why Epping Forest people are kicking off on Next Door LOL

Not really. My mother lives in a warden assisted block and over half her neighbours (as well as her) either pay to leave their car park or have had to sell their cars. It's taken away a lot of independence as there's no bus service within half a mile of their flats and everyone there has a physical disability.

Where do you live that public transport is so terrible? My newest hospital is about 30 mins away but there's no parking near it. I've always had to use public transport to get to it and that involves a bus and overground.

It's not terrible per se. But travelling in this particular direction from where we are is a nightmare and always has been

I live in zone 4 in SE London and we manage fine without a car. We used to live in SW and the transport links are noticeably less here and require a longer walk at the start of the journey. Some of the trains connecting us to the rest of London take only go twice an hour from the nearest rail station. It's a little annoying in bad weather but it's fine. I would love to see fewer cars on the road. A lot of journeys seem to be single adults driving themselves around in 4x4s. I am not sure if the ULEZ expansion is the 'best' or most equitable answer but for people making the effort to do without a car it is good to see at least some action being taken. I grew up in the north west of the country without any public transport at all within 2 miles of my house so I have always found it hard to believe how many cars there are on the road here.

the action to make people drive less is better cheaper public transport.
Also I live in SE Zone4 - i could live without a car but my life would become incredibly difficult, my children would have a lot fewer experiences, mine and their world would significantly shrink.

They are relevant when London boroughs have housed them in surrounding areas, and they still have schools and jobs in the zone.

Also zone 4 and getting into town is easy as - one of the reasons we chose to live where we do. But getting around locally is a whole other kettle of fish.

You also have to realise that having a blue badge doesn't mean you're exempt from paying the charge.

They oppose it because the councillors all drive polluting SUVs themselves. My local council (not in London) has supposedly proclaimed a climate emergency but try getting them to do something that doesn't prioritise cars.

As for the person who said I have no idea - Central London is well provided with public transport, most stations are step-free, including all newer ones and if you don't drive/run a car you can afford a taxi. My SIL has never driven because she can't see well enough and she has always used taxis and buses due to saving the cost of running a car.

I also wonder how many cars this will actually affect - when I looked it said that most petrol cars newer than 2005 would be fine. How many cars are actually still on the road that are that old? I rarely see any.

You also have to realise that having a blue badge doesn't mean you're exempt from paying the charge after 2027 so gives people time to change their cars. If you get mobility presumably you can change relatively easily. I agree it's not so easy if you don't. And some people probably like the cars they have because they are comfortable/fit their disabilities. But you can't say it's ok to pollute the atmosphere because you like the seats in your car - there have to be other options.