Londoner? ULEZ expansion - wrong time?

[GrubzUp]

I like Sadiq Khan, in general I applaud green initiatives.

However it's been announced today that the original inner London low emission zone is to be expanded into outer London - meaning that if you have an older, more polluting vehicle it will cost you £12.50 every time you drive it anywhere in London (inside the M25 I think).

I live in outer London. There are a LOT of older, non ULEZ compliant vehicles on the road round here. At the moment, people don't need to be compliant for local trips, because unless they're heading inside the North / South Circular Rd, they are fine in their older cars.

I look out in the street and see my neighbours' cars: the people who tend to drive older vehicles are the young, the old, the disabled and the poor.

AIBU to say that hitting them with a big new tax for driving anywhere in the middle of a cost of living crisis is the WRONG time? If they can't afford a newer model they certainly can't afford to pay £12 every time they take it off the drive. I feel bad for these people. How are they going to afford it?

Note that public transport here is not what it is in inner London, you can't just "jump on the tube".

I think people who bought deisel cars in good faith should be compensated by the manufacturers or the councils that charge.

It’s hardly the manufacturer’s responsibility. When they made the cars, they complied with the legislation. They aren’t the ones constantly moving the goalposts.

Won't someone think of the drivers and their god-given right to drive their old heavily-polluting vehicles ten minutes down the road when there's a bus going the same way 😭

We like our air grey with exhaust fumes and our streets clogged with private vehicles KHAN OUT

We're affected by this as we live a mile outside Greater London.

Despite the 'consultation' ( he was going to ignore it anyway) it has gone ahead.

Not living in Greater London we have no vote for the Mayor but this greatly impacts on us.

Seriously? Did you not pay any attention to what the diesel manufacturers did?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal

Not so much moving the goalposts as breaking onto the pitch in the dead of night and redrawing all the lines.

Lol. No they didn't comply with legislation as shown in the link above.

We built this buffet - so you're claiming driving is good for women because its safer?! People in cities generally don't drive home after a night out

Plenty women are out and about late for reasons other than a night out Hmm. A young relative of mine is a nurse working shifts. I doubt her old car is compliant and I'm sure she won't be able to afford to replace it. Or pay an extra £12.50 a day to use it.

Exactly. Aside from the fact that plenty of disabled people and those with mobility problems and the elderly are just being othered as though they don't exist or matter - as with those proclaiming that everybody should just walk or get a bike and shut up about it - public transport can be a very unsafe option for people, predominantly women, depending on their circumstances.

What you're really saying is that women currently have too many options open to them to protect their personal safety; so women (along with the wheelchair users told to get a bike) really need to be deliberately put at far more entirely avoidable risk or otherwise move to more restrictive lives with fewer opportunities effectively open to them. Maybe just leave the late-finishing jobs for the big men, eh? Nice.

I also agree that this is just the start of it. By 2030 - probably significantly earlier - it will be only electric vehicles allowed - and maybe even then only EVs up to a certain age. Maybe ICE vehicles will be banned entirely, maybe they will be allowed for £100 a day - always nice to keep classic-car-loving wealthy people's options open.

In the country as a whole, people concerned about the 2030 cut-off for ICE vehicle sales are being assured that existing ones will still be available to buy and sell; I'm guessing that petrol and diesel will still be on sale, but so punitively taxed that a litre of fuel will cost a tenner.

We'll all just have to follow Charles' lead and get our cars converted to run on all of our old corked wine stocks. To be fair, it would help me to find something to do with it all and free up the space it takes, as I've always fancied a swimming pool and a tennis court.

Continually using the word city is very misleading. Outer London is more suburban and even rural in some parts. Living in Biggin hill for example is nothing like living in central London in terms of transport and getting around

Basically in London now, you're screwed if you're
Disabled
A carer
A tradesman
Poor

Also if you are elderly

People's lives and the economy have been based around cars for decades though. You can't just radically alter that overnight without causing quite a lot of collateral social and financial damage.

This. It's called civilisation

Nobody cares about that. For me, if there is even one private car in Central London, the congestion charge is too cheap (excluding people with disabilities).

However, I am not sure it is practical further out of London.

If Khan wants this, he might have to get the boroughs to remove the ridiculous restrictions on using tips too. For example, if you live in Lewisham you have to use the tips in Lewisham. Even if the nearest one is in Bromley. That forces you into the current ULEZ as well as the unnecessary driving.

Indeed.

someone said the disabled would be screwed - surely there's an exemption?

That's really tough and I totally understand about the lack of transport to Heathrow and shifts

Soon we won't be allowed to fly either. This needs to stop

Driving polluting metal boxes around is hardly civilised.

However, I also think once again this is a policy that has a disproportionate effect on women. Women can't always use public transport because it's not safe for them. They can't always walk or cycle because it's not safe for them. So they drive. I don't see why they should pay extra for the privilege.

For me, if there is even one private car in Central London, the congestion charge is too cheap (excluding people with disabilities)

They have scrapped lots of bus routes in Central London and many underground stations are not step-free. There are many elderly people and others with mobility issues who would not be classed as disabled but who would still struggle. You really have no idea, do you?

Basically in London now, you're screwed if you're
Disabled
A carer
A tradesman
Poor

Not just the 'poor'. Also those with what should be a reasonable income but who are now only just about coping with a massive increase in mortgage/rent, food, domestic fuel and car fuel whilst earning less in real terms. Just what they need at the moment - the financial outlay of having to replace the family car next year.

Why can't women use public transport? I've been using it, and cars and motorcycles for years.

I get people don't like it, but it's going to happen. We gave up on leaded cars petrol, 2 stroke scooters, burning coal, over the years.

The poster who said it will be expensive to run a petrol car in 2030 is right. The tax will be extreme and these fees will be even higher.

Do you think this will be rolled out everywhere eventually

I saw some interesting research on this once. Women do a lot more point to point suburban journeys than men - the 'take mum shopping/drop kids at school/drop stuff off at charity shop' type car uses that are hard to replace with public transport. Whereas public transport (especially trains) was set up on a hub and spoke model to whisk mostly male commuters into the centre and back out again.

It's also noticeable how many more cycle commuters (and hobby cyclists) are male. Not all, of course.

@woodhill I think it would be very hard to do so without an enormous investment in public transport. Maybe in places like Bath or Edinburgh. I mean, Manchester must have similar air pollution issues but their public transport is notoriously lacking. Maybe if it was done US-style with a hypothecated tax spent on public transport directly.

That's really interesting.

I live in zone 3/4. I'm a sahm. I do drive but I had a period of about a year where we didn't have a car. I live in South London with no tube. The time it took for me to run errands was incredibly long. Buying food, picking up things the kids needed, taking them to activities, everything took so long

Also cycle lanes are not everywhere. I do cycle as well, but it can be dangerous

Do you think this will be rolled out everywhere eventually

Maybe if we all write to our MPs. Nobody has voted for any pollical party to take matters to such an extreme

The low emissions shouldn't be in inner London, it should only be in outer London as most of the pollution is coming from people driving in and out of London all day long. They should extend it out to Essex, Kent and all of the other commuter towns.
Why should people on low incomes, should as carers, delivery rivers, etc, go bankrupt when they aren't the ones causing the problem in the first place?

*such as