To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

[Fififafa]

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

I personally feel if you don't want a baby with Down's syndrome then you shouldn't be allowed to have a baby. I know this is controversial and many will agree. But if a person doesn't want a disabled baby of any kind they shouldn't have a baby in my opinion. Disability can happen at any moment

How many disabled children have you adopted? Given your stance on this issue I imagine it must be loads!

What a horribly ignorant thing to say. Bringing up a child with disabilities can be incredibly incredibly difficult and you have no idea of people’s circumstances if they find out their child has a serious disability whilst pregnant. God forbid you or any of your own children are ever faced with that choice!

Get to fuck with that simplistic bullshit.

I was pregnant with a very much wanted child.

My child was born with a horrific syndrome that couldn't be tested for. I found out at the moment of birth.

I watched my baby suffer for two whole weeks, all she ever knew was pain, then I had to hold her as she died.

Some time later I was pregnant again and relieved a letter when I was 6 months pregnant saying that it was potentially genetic.

I went for tests and scans and counselling and if my baby had the same condition I would have had a late term abortion to save her from what my dd went through.

I was fortunate that she didn't have the condition, but its not just about "not wanting a child with a disability"

You don't know the nuances of people's lives and what they can cope with, abortion is a valid choice for anyone, for whatever reason.

I bet you're one of those people who thinks disability is a blessing and that "God only give special children to special parents" and that you go around quoting "Welcome To Holland".

YANBU. Having worked in Women's Services I am confident that late term abortions are carried out after careful thought and for good reasons.

I'm pro choice but how is termination at term not murder?

I agree OP. A friend had a late-term abortion because her baby late on was detected to have a serious disorder that meant he would have died soon after birth. She lied to many people and said she miscarried as she was worried about being judged.
The idea of forcing her to give birth at 9 months and then watching her baby die, is a horrific one.

IT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

Why do people like you plop onto threads and spout bullshit? You aren't convincing anybody.

Oh, and nobody is fooled by your "i'm pro-choice but..."

Because a fetus is not a person under law.

HTH.

Case I knew was like that - 20 week scan was nearer 22 weeks - which I think all mine were past 20 or even 21 weeks just to to booking and delays in areas - then further tests coming to terms with implications - and then again working with NHS to get treatment date- and suddenly 24 weeks isn't a huge amount of time.

I think the earlier the better and the rarer the better but beyond that it's down to medical input and individuals it affects to make some really hard choices.

I think the UK law current tries to find that elusive balance in some heart breaking and difficult situations.

Please enlighten me on termination after birth?

It's termination if the child hasn't been born. If someone were to kill a baby after it had been born it would be murder.

But as it's almost unheard of for a termination I don't think we need to worry too much.

I'm not 'glad' but feel that it is the right decision, an uncomfortable one but the right one.

I have read the BBC report, I think the most telling thing is in HC's statement she says she was "angry that the judges say my feelings don't matter" It was too personal for her, and she is therefore unable to separate her feelings from the bigger picture.

"How arrogant of people to want to restrict women’s heartbreaking choices because they feel indulgently ‘uncomfortable’ with them (but of course, wouldn’t have the responsibility of potentially bringing up a child with significant needs themselves)"

I'm a passionate advocate for people with Downs but believe fundamentally in a woman's right to choose (early as possible, as late as necessary).

I agree fully with the outcome of this appeal.

But a bit of compassion for Heidi wouldn't go amiss, in my view she's a vulnerable woman with a learning disability being exploited by some Christian fundamentalist group.

She has every right to feel 'uncomfortable' with the concept of terminating foetuses for the condition that she lives with, I would argue there's nothing 'indulgent' about that at all - do I think that's a valid reason to change the law? Absolutely not, but it doesn't stop me feeling empathy for people like Heidi who must feel like our pre-natal testing and abortion laws amount to some kind of erasure.

YANBU.

YANBU

Most terminations are performed early in pregnancy, 89% before 10 weeks, because as a poster says above most women know straight away if they don't want a baby.

A very small minority have terminations late in pregnancy, 1% after 20 weeks and 0.1% after 24% weeks. After 24 weeks must be for serious medical problems.

Data from the government abortion statistics

^In 2021, 89% of abortions were performed under 10 weeks, increasing from 88% in 2020 and 78% in 2011. The percentage performed at 20 weeks was 1% in both 2020 and 2021. (Table 3a.iii).^

^The legal limit for a woman having an abortion is 24 weeks gestation. This is the point at which the fetus is viable outside the mother’s body. Abortions may be performed after 24 weeks in certain circumstances, for example, if the mother’s life is at risk or the child would be born severely disabled. Abortions where gestation is 24 weeks or over account for a very small number of abortions (0.1% of the total). There were 276 such abortions in 2021.^

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/abortion-statistics-for-england-and-wales-2021/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2021

The only time a baby is terminated close to birth is if it is going to die killing the mother. The baby is removed to save the mothers life.

Some women don’t find out until 24+ weeks that their baby has a disability.

Such nonsense. They check for foetal heartbeat before inducing labour.

Fuck off with your lies.

And looking after a severely disabled child is very hard.

Ethically or legally?

Legally - very easily not so.

Ethically - well, it’s a valid debate. But, you should have it in the context of what really happens. A poster above has given facts about the small number of late term abortions. You’d need to remove from those the cases where the foetus was incompatible with life outside the uterus. From the remaining abortions after 24 weeks, how many do you think took place at term? (let’s say 37 weeks). It starts to look like propaganda when you make it seem like women are casually aborting babies at 39+6 🤷🏻‍♀️

Agreed. Unfortunately, the woman taking her case is basing it entirely on her emotions, whereas any lawyer could tell her that emotions have nothing to do with the law (thank goodness!). I fear that she is being encouraged and badly advised by organisations with a vested interest.