To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

[Fififafa]

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

Not really a friend, just an acquiantance, in my defense! No, I don't think I could be friends with someone with whose morality is so different from mine. But I don't like it when Christians argue in bad faith by pushing particular emotive/fringe cases, instead of stating what they actually want and believe.

When people start using religious arguments against abortion I like to point out that not only does the bible not explicitly condemn abortion, it also gives instructions on how to carry one out.

God is pro-choice.

Yes, best to let her die to avoid having to go to court to explain why they saved her life. Cowards rather than zealots then. Not sure that's any more admirable.

I do understand that, I also hate it when proselytising religions try to disguise their real agendas (or indeed anyone does). Just saying that in fact, even your acquaintance's 'consistent' position isn't really, once you start to ask real questions.

Compassionate induction is a term I've learned from this thread. I think all abortions after 24 weeks should be called this instead in the UK. It is a much better term for a TFMR. My mum lost a baby in between me and my sister and once told me she always uses those words instead of the term miscarriage. The language we use can be so important.

I envy your naivety. Or your ability to read the stories on this thread, mine, Tim's, that of the other courageous women who have shared and have such confidence in your own opinion and the cognitive dissonance to think you know better.

You have no idea.

You have no idea about a "grey diagnosis" or the reality of watching your child die.

You have no idea about what it is to give birth to death.

Just as an FYI, The mum who had had the stillborn and the mum who had had compassionate induction would be looked after in the bereavement suites, usually called butterfly rooms. They would both be cared for by the bereavement midwives. They would both do memory making with their babies. They would both leave with memory boxes. They would both be signposted to SANDS for support.

I'm just putting this here, in case it's of use to any woman affected:

www.tommys.org/baby-loss-support/

There's a specific section on TFMR: www.tommys.org/baby-loss-support/tfmr-terminating-pregnancy-medical-reasons

I understand that sometimes there are issues found late in the day, but you can reasonably find out if your child has downs with the combined test at 14 weeks.

Plus, I have a seen a number of threads where a relationship has broken down or something and the poster is wondering about whether or not to abort. They are then told by a number of posters that it's up to the mother to be able to abort for any reason. With that in mind, I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that people abort, certainly up to the current limit for a healthy child and maybe up until birth if the child is disabled because they have changed their mind.

Indeed, anything where you had one opinion and now you have another could be classed as "changing your mind".

For sure. When people use the bible as proof god is pro life I do wonder if they've read it. Jobs family, the first born sons of Egypt, none of those are pro life. Its just sanctimonious bullshit

@Trianglesquarerectangle the test at 14 weeks just gives you a risk, not a certainty - that takes further testing.

It doesn't matter that they've changed their mind. Its their choice to make, for any reason, at any time they wish

Apologies if this is a de-rail, but I'm a Christian, and a licensed lay minister, and I'm also very much pro-choice. I don't believe that God wants anyone to suffer - mother or child, and I also believe that for a pregnancy to be gently and safely terminated rather than be born to a mother who for whatever reason feels that she cannot cope, or just does not want to face the challenges of a child who has a disability, is an acceptable way of reducing suffering - of both mother and child, and probably of other family members as well.

However while I know that nowhere in the Bible is abortion banned, I've never seen any instructions on how to perform one. Could you let me know the reference, please? This would be very useful (and very interesting) for me. Please PM me if you don't want to state this on the thread. Thank you.

Apologies for the detour.

Yes, it's absolutely within the law to abort that child up to 24 weeks. I am merely commenting on the fact that there are quite a few on this thread who have said a variation of "As said, it isn't about changing your mind..". Yes, it is. It is absolutely about changing your mind so in the same way that a PP said she doesn't understand why those who don't believe in abortion fudge around the language, I don't understand why people can't just own the decision that they changed their mind, and that sometimes they changed their minds for reasons others (like myself) don't really understand.

And sometimes the shock of learning that your much-wanted, and (even in early pregnancy) already loved baby is going to have a condition which will (at the very least) limit their life, is something that takes time to come to terms with.

Making a decision like this isn't like flicking a light switch, most women go through all of the stages of grief, because this is a bereavement. One of those stages is denial, and getting to the position where the mother can make a decision - as informed as possible and in as calm and certain a state as possible - takes time, and how much time depends on the individual.

Women don't terminate their babies lightly. They really, really don't.

@Trianglesquarerectangle so you are basically saying that women who terminate pregnancies at a late stage do actually just do so for trivial reasons? The statistics on the % of abortions that take place after 24 weeks are very clear.

not only does the bible not explicitly condemn abortion, it also gives instructions on how to carry one out

@Endwalker Where is that in the bible please?

We're commanded in the Bible not to kill people and abortion is killing someone. It's about as bad as it gets.

Numbers 19-22 talks about a priest giving a woman bitter water to expel the contents of her womb if she has cheated in her husband.

There's a bit in Exodus 21-22 too, but that's more about accidental miscarriage. In that the fetus is referred to as property needing to be atoned and paid for and the woman as a whole person separate. It makes the distinction between woman and unborn baby as person / none person.

And life begins at first breath not in the womb. I think that's also Exodus. I'm not well versed in my OT.

It also says judge not lest ye be judged but you're clearly happy to play fast and loose with that.

The bible says life begins at first breath, which is birth. Genesis 2:7.

I believe that would be the part about inducing a miscarriage in a woman by a man kicking her in the stomach and paying the husband some money.

The Bible is has stories of violence against pregnant women. It is a misogynistic book, imo

Ah! Thank you - you're right. I hadn't thought about that because the application of bitter waters is not merely to cleanse the womb, but also causes the woman to waste away, legs and belly etc - the bitter waters was IIRC a test of infidelity (whether there was a pregnancy there or not), because if the woman had not been unfaithful then she would suffer no ill effects, but of she'd been unfaithful then she would suffering shrinking of the thighs and belly (yes - that does suggest that if she's been pregnant it would terminate a foetus, but I hadn't thought of it like that) and she would die.

I imagine that it was largely psychological (terrified unfaithful women would frighten themselves to death by drinking the bitter waters. I'm not sure which )if any_ herbs were supposed to be involved to make them bitter. As I understood it, they were embittered by the ashes of a piece of parchment on which had been written God's Holy name, mixed with a pinch of dust (possibly from the Temple floor - I'd have to check this) and one of the woman's hairs.

Cheers!

THAT was certainly NOT and endorsement of abortion.

The context for that was if violence was used against a woman, and she had been pregnant and lost her child as a result, then the assailant had to pay a sum of money as compensation for the lost child. If the woman died as well, then the assailant was executed.

This is because an unborn child wasn't considered a person, so no murder had been committed. If the woman died, she was a person and murder had been committed.

If anything this part confirms English Common Law that the child doesn't achieve personhood (and protection of the law) until birth, which is the opposite of what many Christians (Evangelical and otherwise) believe.

The first breath is God breathing life into the child.

Thank you @SnotRag22 - your comment got me thinking and brought back a lot of information that had slipped out of my mind. You know how it is. When you remember (or are reminded of) one snippet of information it pulls up lots of other bits with it.

The idea of bitter water is interesting. Hyssop is a herb that has traditionally been used to induce abortion, and its flavour is indeed bitter.