To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

[Fififafa]

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

The baby is not perfectly healthy if they have DS. And if the baby born was so profoundly disabled that they were to be "left to die" then it's known as palliative care.

They (medical professionals) do everything they can, sometimes that is just to make them comfortable and support the parents through the worst day of their lives.

BPAS - If successful, this case could have had far-reaching implications.

The claimants argued in Court that foetuses should have human rights – this has never been decided in law and would go against many years of legal precedent in the UK.

Maire Lea Wilson (one of the parents behind this movement) was on the radio a while back arguing that her son is ‘very healthy’. Her Instagram profile will detail that he has numerous health issues, regular medical appointments and ongoing investigations around various things. He - like me, with various issues I have - is not ‘very healthy’.

She, like the others, knows that using a visual image of her child protects her from rigorous opposition because nobody can argue with her stance without looking like they’re specifically talking about her lovely child (when they’re not).

But seeing as she seeks to restrict my rights, I feel I am entitled to query everything she says and expose when it is rather disingenuous.

Great post @IncessantNameChanger .
Very well said.

Absolutely. If it was successful it would mean a foetus, potentially one that isn't viable, would take precedence over a living woman.

I'm hugely concerned that a you could give birth to a prem baby at 30+ weeks - and for it to survive but if there's a high chance of genetic mutation, you haven't started to go into labour you could terminate the pregnancy beyond the point that the baby would survive ex-utero.

You have no idea about the potential capabilities of a child with a mutated gene, yet you can still terminate because the 13th gene is non-standard. Even at 36w.
It feels wrong.
But I'm not unbiased. I'm adopted and I'm fully aware that I only exist because abortion was illegal when I was conceived.

Im split opinion, i think women should have the right to terminate if they dont want to raise a disabled child
BUT sometimes the test can be wrong and youll be terminating a healthy baby

I also empathise with the people that have down syndrome and their parents
because hearing this can NOT be easy and actually be very hurtful
And yes it can feel like a direct attack

When i heard that euthanasia is legal for people with autism
It did make me feel really shit and worthless
Almost like they are saying "if you or your child has autism youre better off dead"
It just feels wrong to say people with disabilities or genetic illnesses are worthless and should be eradicated

The number of abortions taking place post-24wks is very small - just 274 last year. There are no published details of which gestational stage they were carried out at but it's safe to presume that they'll have been done as soon as possible after the decision was made and that this would likely be closer to the 24wk mark than the 40wk one. No one in that situation hangs about unnecessarily just because they can.

It doesn't matter if it "feels wrong" to you, you're entitled to your view, however those women are entitled to make a decision over their pregnancy without input or judgement from you/others.

Perhaps, as several posters have suggested on the thread, the best thing to do is to make abortion legal up to full term for ALL pregnancies. Then there is no discrimination against disability (real or perceived) and all lives can be considered equal before the law.

The more time goes on, the more I think this may be the best option. Late-term abortions are already vanishingly rare with the current legislation - I very much doubt there would be many (if any) more if they just made it legal at any gestation for any woman .

Amd at 30+w pregnant, the parents will have had multiples of scans, tests, amniocentesis, MRIs to find out as much about their darling baby's diagnosis as possible. Weeks of horror, worry, tears, hell. And they have made the horrendous choice to not allow their child to suffer.

This isn't the same as a child born at 30+w prematurely who is otherwise healthy.

@JessicaBrassica the effects and comorbidities of trisomy 21 (and others) are very well known, so that isn't a valid point. What you're taking a chance on is how severe the issues turn out to be, and it should be up to the mother to decide to take that on, or not.

@pinheadlarry where in the world is euthanasia legal for autism?

The doctors don’t give a prognosis based on the DNA / gene mutation alone . They look at the fetus in detail, their lungs , brain , eyes , heart , intestines , fluid in the ventricles masses or voids in the brain etc etc.
Usually it’s obvious that a baby born will have a crap life / no life because it’s clearly not ‘all there’ and it’s the doctors job to create the most detailed prognosis they can and then the parents job to decide to end that pregnancy or not. And no one outside of that room on that day should have any say or opinion whatsoever.
i have a very close family member who lived into adulthood with Downs , she had a host of medical complications but was very loved and happy. Would I terminate a child with DS? Absolutely . I’ve found raising healthy kids a struggle and you get to pack them off to uni at 18 , the difference between parenting an average kid and one with profound additional needs Is like the difference between a cycling proficiency and a HGV licence. You are not signing up to the same thing at all.

Where is euthanasia legal for autistic people? Certainly not in the UK and its UK law we're discussing.

The tests done are repeated and further testing is done, women are entitled to seek a second opinion, and so on. They don't just do a ten minute scan and then say "oh dear, looks like a dodgy one, best get rid...", there is a more rigorous clinical process in place than that. I had a potential problem identified in a scan and was told to come back a week later for a follow-up scan, I was then referred into fetal medicine a week after that for a more detailed anatomy scan with a specialist sonographer. This scan was then reviewed with the consultant. Pathways had been discussed with me and it was made clear that if the potential problem was present then further testing would be offered to get as much information as possible. These scans looked okay but I was monitored for the remainder of my pregnancy with fortnightly scans and consultant reviews.

No one is saying disabled people are worthless or should be eradicated but women should not be forced to continue a pregnancy if they do not feel it to be in their best interests or the best interests of the potential child.

I think you need to clarify where you hears 'When i heard that euthanasia is legal for people with autism' as that doesnt sound right

Definitely not unreasonable. Women should have the right to choose whether they feel they can bring up a child that could have varying forms of disabilities, some children can be severely disabled which is not fair on the children or parents.

My last 20 week anomaly scan wasn’t until 24 weeks.

If anything had been picked up then I wouldn’t have had a chance to organise a termination until after that point.

Why would it be disgraceful to have a termination after the anomaly scan? Many things are not picked up on 12 week scans.

But that was your choice. I think you are amazing. I could not have brought up a disabled child. My mental health would have meant I would have been very ill. But we’ll fine to you.

Down syndrome can slip through the net and you may not know till after 24 weeks or even till so the situation changes for some people. It's not just about having a baby. It's about giving people an option should they find out after 24 weeks. I'm not saying that's right or wrong but it changes the point

The vast majority of late term abortions are not done because the woman suddenly changed her mind FFS. A lot of serious disabilities are not picked up until after 20 weeks. A dear friend of mine had a termination for medical reasons at 25 weeks. Her baby was severely ill and would not have survived outside of the womb (kidneys did not form). It took several weeks of testing and rescanning to confirm the diagnosis. The baby was planned and very much wanted, and she was absolutely devastated.

If this law had gone ahead she would have had to have carried the baby to term knowing he wouldn't have survived, given birth and then had the baby slowly die and she would have had to watch on helplessly. How bloody cruel.

My youngest is profoundly disabled. Had I not been treated appallingly by a staff member (who was sacked as a result) of have terminated.

Now everyone in my family suffers, including DD herself, because of someone else’s bullying choice.

Id support anyone to terminate at any point. For the child’s sake if nothing else.

@GrapesAreMyJam oh, they do. They get it perfectly. They just don't give a damn.

*My child has a disability. Shall I get rid of him now? Or should I have just opted to do it whilst he was in my womb just in case?

You piss off!

I'm only saying 6 months is generally long enough to make that decision. Really struggling to see why another needs the full 9 months in any circumstance*.

So you had a choice. Fantastic. Its not for you to police other peoples choices. Many disabilities are discovered at 20 weeks and 4 weeks may not be enough time to go through testing to check the prognosis is correct. The choice to abort for any reason and for past 24 weeks in cases of disability needs to remain.

People who geniunely believe you shouldn't be able to abort after 16 weeks - I'm interested in your logic. So you think people should be legally mandated to utilize their organs to support the life of another (for the sake of argument) person. Why only reproductive organs? I'm guessing you've got 2 decently healthy kidneys in there. You don't actually need both of them. There are plenty of people out there right now whose life you could save by donating one. Why aren't you obliged to?