David Badiel - Jews Don't Count. Shocked

[Everanewbie]

AIBU to be disappointed and upset at the blindspot for antisemitism that was highlighted in last night's excellent documentary? The Leigh Francis part was especially revealing to me. The (quite correct) groveling apologies for the Michael Jackson, Craig David and Mel B characters were a contrast to the defining silence on the David Badiel character.

What is more, the reaction from the left-wing commentators (Owen Jones, et al) on twitter seem to suggest that Badiel says other racism doesn't exist, which feels like a deliberate and willful misrepresentation.

He never compared the level of discrimination against Jews to other groups.

He never claimed that Jews suffer more discrimination than other groups.

He simply made the point that discrimination against Jews is growing more and more acceptable by the left or "liberal" parts of society.

You may disagree with him but don't make straw man arguments.

I read the book but didn't watch the programme.

I'm glad David Baddiel finally apologised properly to Jason Lee, that was LONG overdue.

I am not Jewish. I don't believe I'm an anti-Semite. I do acknowledge that antisemitism exists, causes harm and trauma, has historically causes unimaginable harm and trauma, and is just as vile as all types of racism that cause such harm.

Where I struggle is that it's obvious to me that by any markers of success that one could name, BAME people are typically massively under-represented while Jewish people are typically over-represented.

So if we look at Oxbridge student populations; MPs; members of the HoL; Board members of fortune 500 companies; Sunday Times rich list (and so on), you'd statistically find that Jewish people (0.3% of UK population in 2020) comprise a much higher % of those successful individuals, vs BAME (14%) who statistically comprise almost zero.

For that reason I think it is valid not to typically include Jewish people on lists of disadvantaged minorities; because while they are a minority group, and they undeniably experience racism and its traumas, they don't seem to experience the systemic disadvantages that hold other minorities back in life.

Expect to be called awful names for this, obviously :) But would be genuinely delighted if anyone wanted to engage and discuss.

I agree. I have read the book, too. Good book. So true. No, I’m not Jewish 😊

For using Blackface

I am watching this with my teenagers tonight. The rise of anti-semitism in this country really saddens/angers me and I want to teach the younger generation about it.

@WoolyMammoth55

I think you have just made David Baddiels point for him

I think a lot of antisemitism is “justified” on the basis of Israeli foreign policy. It’s an absolute disgrace. I applaud DB for highlighting this issue. There is a hard core of the educated left who are antisemitic and hiding in plain sight in political, educational and other settings all dressed up as pro Palestinian. These are different issues.

Back in the 70s I knew another mum who was Jewish. One day she was bemoaning (in a jokey way) the embarrassment of being at prize giving at her children's Jewish school. She said that yet again the Hebrew prize had been won by a Muslim child, she said it happened quite often.

I know nothing about languages but she said Arabic and Hebrew are fairly close so the Muslim kids, mainly from Pakistani families, went to the Mosque every night to learn the Koran and then did well with Hebrew. I thought that was so encouraging and amazing that these primary school children were fluent in English, probably speaking Urdu at home, learning the Koran in Arabic and also winning prizes for Hebrew.

It is very sad if that has changed. I might look the school up to see how it's going.

Ah. Not much engagement and discussion then :)

Chinese people experience the same dynamic. Racism and attacks but on average do better economically than white Christian people. Just wondering whether you also dismiss racism against Chinese people such as attacks on people when covid was still called the Chinese virus?

@WoolyMammoth55 You have the same dynamic with Sikh community as well. Sikhs experience racism but economically on average do well.

Yes, in his book and in newspapers but never to Jason personally - as he admits himself in the documentary, on social media and on a number of media interviews this week (yesterdays The Newsagents podcast is well worth a listen)

So previously, the only way Jason could have seen an apology was by buying something written who was racist to him and presumably he got a cut off (obviosuly his book, but I suspect he got paid for various newspaper articles over the year - or at the very least promotion value).... why should he have to part with his money to get an apology?

I think it is a difficult one, with several layers. There is definitely a growing sentiment of anti-Semitism being seen as acceptable within certain circles in the Left, especially during the Corbyn years, and that's awful.

However, David Baddiel is also the guy who did Blackface, so maybe he's not the right messenger for this one. Also, it's hard to see Jews as a distinct race, as to most undiscerning eyes, they could easily pass for White, unless displaying obvious symbols of their Faith.

And finally, sometimes there seems to be an extra- sensitivity around everyday language that's immediately leapt on as evidence of "anti-Semitism", even when it isn't or isn't intended that way, especially concerning the notion of Rich Jews.

Obviously, the Holocaust was a terrible thing, and it's also the only form of discrimination where to even deny it, is a crime. You don't get that for anti-Black racism, for sure.

And then there's the whole thing about someone being culturally Jewish, but not necessarily an adherent to the Faith, but also being extremely sensitive about all sorts of things "perceived" as coded language.

Thanks for your response. I don't really agree that it's the same for Sikhs and ethnically Chinese Britons. I was a Cambridge undergrad back in the day and JSoc had one of the largest memberships of any student clubs; I don't think there is the same over-representation in the student body of the other groups you've mentioned.

I also know that neither of those groups is well-represented in the UK Houses of Commons or Lords.

I'm genuinely not trying to be goady, nor am I anti-Semitic. It seems to me that it should be possible to statistically prove what I'm talking about, although Google isn't obliging me with stats.

I agree. Antisemitism is everywhere, you do not have to look hard to find it.

As a very small example, this is from the gov.uk website:

www.gov.uk/government/news/protective-security-grant-funding-for-jewish-institutions-to-continue

"In 2021, the CST recorded 2,255 anti-Jewish hate incidents nationwide"

‘Disadvantaged’ means different things depending on how you measure it - as you correctly point out.

But Badiel isn’t really talking about advantage or disadvantage, he’s discussing

1. stereotype and racist abuse
2. how the above is not challenged or claimed not to exist.

By saying Jews are not disadvantaged you’re proving his point nicely. And as he says in the book, a swastika is still frightening even when it’s daubed on your nice big house.

Badiels own family were affluent and successful. Then many were murdered by the Nazis.

@HatefulHaberdashery Denying the holocaust is not a crime in the UK. The comparable issue for black people is someone denying the Atlantic slave trade.
Sensitive over words - I think you mean unless someone is saying kill jews then it is not antisemitism. It is the same view that used to be common in the 70s and 80s around black people.

but not necessarily an adherent to the Faith, but also being extremely sensitive about all sorts of things "perceived" as coded language.
Because not adhering to the faith doesn't stop the attacks or hatred of as Baddiel put it in one of his interviews "a pass out of auschwitz"
Coded hate filled language when directed at you long enough becomes incredibly easy to spot.

Your post is laced with subtle antisemitism (akin to conspiracy theories about jews). Why should people 'engage and discuss', except to say you've literally proved his point for him.

Jews can't identify out of being Jewish. That was made clear during the Holocaust - whether you were a religious Jew, a cultural Jew, a fully assimilated Jew, even someone who was a practising member of another religion - if you had Jewish heritage, you were a Jew under the racist and anti-semitic laws enacted.

It's quite understandable to me why people you term 'culturally Jewish' are sensitive to perceptions of antisemitic tropes.

Yes he is. That is why I keep trying to explain that one becomes a Jew in two ways (a) by having a Jewish mother (which David Badiel has) or (b) by deciding to adopt the faith and practices of religious Jews, living that way for (usually a number of years) and declaring that in front of a Jewish religious authority - after circumcision (if male) and a ritual immersion - who accept the conversion.

Think of citizenship that you cannot renounce. David Badiel is a Jew because he is the child of a Jew, whether he wanted it or not. He has no interest in the faith parts, but he is very much still a Jew. So is the person who has gone through the conversion process, even though genetically they may not have "Jewish genes". But the person who has gone through the conversion process would be expected to (at least at the time of conversion) to be committed to the faith (they could also, post fact, lapse, and would still be a Jew).

This!

I'll engage and discuss.

Your point is interesting as it implies that racism doesn't exist if the minority in question are relatively well performing economically or socially. So, by your logic, because Indian children do better than white children at school, does this mean it's not psosible to be racist against Indians?

Or in the US, Asian kids are overrepresented at Ivy Leage universities (or were, until the admissions offices started to discriminate against them in favour of Blakc applicants) - does this mean it's not possible to be racist against Asians?

Does economic or societal success mean that you no longer suffer discrimination? I've mentioned my partner's Jewish, and his father did very well for himself as a self made businessman. As a result he sent my partner to a posh private school. My partner was bullied there and called a Jewboy, kike, yid. Bullying so dreadful it blighted his teenage years and early 20s. Was that racist bullying, or wasn't it, because his dad had done well?

In New York, there is currently a spate of violent street attacks against Asian shopkeepers and small business owners. Most of the attacks are being carried out by Black people. Is that racist violence, as it's one ethnic group against another? Or is it in fact, an oppressed group lashing out at its wealthier oppressor?

@WoolyMammoth55 I did not realise you were only talking about MPs and Lords, I thought your issue was that Jewish people tend on average to be more economically successful?Sikh communities have been in the UK in any number for a relatively short time unlike Jewish communities. Becoming an MP seems to depend so much on contacts that this will change but slowly for the Sikh community.Economically the Sikh community do the best on average.

I find it hard to get on board with the idea it’s ‘not fair’ that holocaust denial is illegal. I’m sure Jewish people would rather that law wasn’t necessary (in the US) either.

Can you give an example of language that appears antisemitic but isn’t?