David Badiel - Jews Don't Count. Shocked

[Everanewbie]

AIBU to be disappointed and upset at the blindspot for antisemitism that was highlighted in last night's excellent documentary? The Leigh Francis part was especially revealing to me. The (quite correct) groveling apologies for the Michael Jackson, Craig David and Mel B characters were a contrast to the defining silence on the David Badiel character.

What is more, the reaction from the left-wing commentators (Owen Jones, et al) on twitter seem to suggest that Badiel says other racism doesn't exist, which feels like a deliberate and willful misrepresentation.

Are all successful Black people hypocrites? Barack Obama? Lenny Henry? Whoopie Goldberg?

I think you’ve made his point for him.

I won't listen to a word that the racist vile hypocrite black-facing fucking arse Baddiel says.

I do agree anti-semitism is on the rise which is horrifying & we should all stand ready to defend Jewish people from hate speech & actions.

I do agree that Israel have a hateful genocidal despicable government

All these things can be true at the same time:

Gosh. What a dreadful world when dc can't just go to school without worrying about terrorist attacks.
You have my sympathy.

And he may well feel like that, as a Jew antisemitism is the discrimination that directly affects him and the discrimination he will subconsciously notice the most happening around him. It’s not accurate though. I’m a Muslim woman, I notice hatred towards Muslims everyday, mainly online where people can speak anonymously, but also during my daily life. My closest friend is black, and she notices racism towards black people everyday too. We are hyper aware of discrimination towards our own group because it directly impacts us - to then claim that your race, or other characteristic, is the most discriminated against despite countless incidents and injustice against other groups is dismissive and offensive.

@beachcitygirl I have Jewish heritage and don’t approve of all Israeli policy.

Israel however should not be mentioned on threads about antisemitism. It should be irrelevant. We shouldn’t blame Christians for Britain’s worst policy errors either eg the war in Iraq, just because the Church of England is the established faith and the monarch of the UK heads it.

Baddiel’s argument is that antisemitism is called out less than all other forms of discrimination. This literally implies that all other discriminated groups are more privileged than Jews

No it doesn't, that's a complete logic failure on your part, unless you think the degree to which racism is called out is the only thing that should be used to compute relative privilege. (In which case, for example, you must think the relative amount of verbal abuse, physical attacks and other discrimination are all of no consequence in deciding how hard different groups have it.)

@mamacattiva can you point us to where in the book or documentary he says Jewish people are the most discriminated against?

I thought he simply said discrimination against Jewish people isn’t understood or noticed.

Apologies - I meant his claim that antisemitism is the form of discrimination that is the least acted upon is untrue.

I’m Jewish and the classic argument is always “I’m antizionist, not an antisemite”. What, believing that Jews control the world and must be stopped? Alright, Röhm… I mean vegan ladies from book group.

The problem people are struggling with in terms of who is a Jew is that it doesn't fit nicely into other predetermined categories. If anything, it is closest to a form of citizenship (except it is one that you can join but not renounce). British citizenship is gained in one of two ways (a) you are the child of a British citizen or (b) you go through the process to gain citizenship.

Jewishness is also gained in one of two ways (a) you are the child of a Jewish mother (according to the Orthodox tradition, although some of the other alternatives, such as Reform, count fathers too) or (b) you convert to being Jewish (which means you adopt the faith and practices of Jews and do so in front of a Jewish religious authority).

So, you have people who were born not Jewish, but have converted, and that will have a faith element involved (the process at least via Orthodoxy is rigourous, and you have got to be pretty determined and really want it), and you also have people who are born Jewish, but are totally uninterested in practicing or any of the religious elements and for whom being Jewish is purely an ethnicity. And of course there are those who value the culture but are not interested in the religius elements.

All the above are discriminated against by anti-semites who do not distinguish between believers and non-believers - and as mentioned, you can join but you can't leave, although sometimes you can "pass".

I used to think anti-semitism was a very small issue but in recent years I've seen and heard it from left-wing aquaintances. People who would absolutely dispute they were being racist when it's utterly blatant. I've seen less of it from them on Facebook etc in the last year or so, so hopefully the message is getting across.

I think it’s appropriate to talk about the way anti semitism and andI Israel are conflated. Both by anti senites, and by those accusing others of anti semitism.

there’s agreement here that this conflation is wrong, but it’s a valid part of the debate

I agree with you. That is why it is confusing to me why David Badiel would have thought that it was okay to use blackface, and parody a footballer with natural locks, by wearing a pineapple on his head. Shocking.

This is an interesting comment because it implies that Jews are just making a big fuss over nothing ("is there REALLY a great risk?" Or are they just making a fuss over nothing? - is the implication).

It reminds me of when I left the Labour Party because of the renewed anti-semitism under Corbyn. I told a fellow member why I had left. Mentioned that my partner was Jewish and very angry and afraid at the surge in racism in Labour and what it might mean if they got into power. This member basically told me that if I hadn't experienced anti-semitism in Labour directly myself, then it didn't excist. That I'd had my head turned by the anti-Corbyn bias of the BBC, and that I was making a big fuss over nothing.

Genuine question and I’m not trying to be obtuse;
I thought David Baddiel was an atheist? He’s patron of a humanist U.K.

Why is it racist to say that there are major pockets of AS in some European Muslim communities? It's hardly a controversial view?

Most prevalent amongst young Muslim men.

www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt16gzdvm

isgap.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Jikeli_Antisemitic_Attitudes_among_Muslims_in_Europe.pdf

• are both thoughtful and well researched overviews of the problem.

@mamacattiva In the circles I move in anti Islamic comments would rightly be considered taboo. I honestly hear more openly anti semitic comments as I think people think they are ok to say.

Do you hear any anti semitic comments ever from your friends or neighbours?

There's loads of Jewish atheists. It's an ethnicity, not just a religion.

The only "Jewish" school in Dublin (which is now multi faith since really the mid 1980s) has very strict security when compared to irish schools in general (which effectively don't require any). The local Synagogue to this school has a security gate about 8 feet tall, Security cameras, a crash barrier, a private security firm to assist on Fridays / Saturdays when its mainly open and direct Garda (police) assistance from the local station.

No Catholic / CoI or Mosque requires any of these.

There are loads of secular Jews.

@FloydPepper i think what’s difficult is ok yes it’s right to mention it’s NOT ok to mention it. I agree with calling it out.

But victim blaming trophes never belong in civilised discourse and should just be shut out.

Eg we shouldn’t and I hope wouldn’t say - I believe in rape and I think in its ok to wear a short skirt. Ideally they wouldn’t even be mentioned together.

In the same way I would never say oh women do talk a lot, but I believe domestic violence can happen.

@Onceuponatimethen yes it should be irrelevant.

BUT

given that I was called anti-Semitic (by more than one person) when I vocally criticised the Cold blooded murder of four tiny little boys on a Gaza beach in 2014 by the Israeli state. I'm afraid it's difficult to navigate.

Given that drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli government policy to fascism is considered anti-Semitic then this is always going to be an issue.

I very much consider anti-semitism to be racism, no question. How anyone can't see this is beyond me.

@potniatheron Yes, it was just so blatant especially on Twitter. The constant downplaying and gaslighting jewish people online if they so much as hinted they'd experienced antisemitism in Labour circles. Often met with (by self-proclaimed antiracists) 'what about Israel' 'from the river to the sea' 'you'e just trying to sabotage Corbyn' or they were just imagining it, etc etc. Often very, very insidious.

@MissHavershamReturns I honestly don’t, I know it’s common to say that antisemitism is common in Muslim communities but not in my experience. My children went to a Jewish school for a short time, and there were other Muslim children who also attended and still do.

I’ve only heard antisemitism from British white people in passing - always generally along the lines of Jews being “tight” and never paying for anything.

Anti-Isreal discussion is common in the Muslim community I’m in and I’m confident that I would call out any veiled antisemitism, but to counter that so is anti-Palestinian discourse e.g. “there’s a reason no other Arab country wants them!” and I’m quick to shut that shit down too.