David Badiel - Jews Don't Count. Shocked

[Everanewbie]

AIBU to be disappointed and upset at the blindspot for antisemitism that was highlighted in last night's excellent documentary? The Leigh Francis part was especially revealing to me. The (quite correct) groveling apologies for the Michael Jackson, Craig David and Mel B characters were a contrast to the defining silence on the David Badiel character.

What is more, the reaction from the left-wing commentators (Owen Jones, et al) on twitter seem to suggest that Badiel says other racism doesn't exist, which feels like a deliberate and willful misrepresentation.

I've given links earlier in thread @antelopevalley

X

@antelopevalley as was pointed out by pp he has apologised in the JC and they (the paper) handled it very well x

hi there beachcitygirl fwiw i'm jewish & think he is a total twat, can't stand the cunt and never watch or listen to him so if he has offended anyone he is a knob of the first order and they are justified to hate him, if that helps. He is a twat but (not saying you are doing this.....) who happens to be jewish. To assume all jews agree with him because he is jewish is antisemetic in itself. As for the Roma community, i have no idea what he said (as i said above i avoid him like the plague) but i have always acknowledged their loss as part of WW2 and think their treatment was equally horrific. I'm sure many jews feel the same.

I disagree. You asked why you had never seen police outside a Buddhist temple (I have, btw) or why Buddhists never have to apologise for the actions happening elsewhere in the world. I inferred you were comparing to how Jews are made to feel like they need to apologise for the actions of Israel - apologies if that’s not the case.

Baddiel himself says he feel absolutely nothing towards Israel, so why should he need to apologise? Completely understandable. It then gets more complicated when Jewish public figures such as Miriam Margolyes state that yes, Jews should always speak out about the actions of Israel against Palestinians to strive for change, because it then becomes inferred by some that if you, as a Jew, don’t speak out then you are supportive of apartheid. This then gives some vile people the justification they need to attack (verbally and physically) Jewish people.

I’m writing about my perception of what I see happening in society btw, not that that I agree with Mariam or blame Jewish victims.

Mamacativa - It is that idea that Jews need to speak out that is anti-semitic, in my view. I met a Hungarian family in the park a couple of weeks ago. They didn't tell me what they thought of Orban, and nor did I ask. I would be considered insane if I considered either that they were responsible for the Hungarian govt or had a responsibility to denounce it. The more so for Jews and Israel, but somehow the "perception" exists.

Ah @monsteramunch found it.

@gruffalosbrother said in response to someone liking a post made by @mamacattiva
(Who has clearly stated she's been on the receiving end of abuse as a visibly religious woman. )

"...people who have no lived experience, think they know better"

Now, in the spirit of being charitable and moving this along & away from the unkindness. Maybe there was cross posting or misspeak or something other than what it seems to mean, was meant.

But I took that to mean it was a reference to @mamacattiva thus my thoughts & words.

If I was wrong - mea culpa.

I think it's fair to say from
This thread that everyone feels abuse and racism towards their own minority community more sharply, especially as most of us have kids & worry.

Black people with good reason feel very persecuted
Jewish people with good reason feel very persecuted
Roma people with good reason feel very persecuted.
Muslim people with good reason feel very
Persecuted

Baddiel is a divisive figure it's clear with his history.

What we should ALL (including me) be doing is being compassionate and supportive and ally's to each others in the fight against racism.

Not playing games of " who had it worse"

Can we all agree to that please & all try to move on?

I'm personally finding some of the historical posts wonderfully enlightening x

Peace to all.

@alwaysthesameonthesethreads xxx no, I do not think he speaks for all Jewish people. Not one bit. I really really really appreciate your post x

@beachcitygirl That is not what she meant! She was saying that those with no experience of being a religiously persecuted Jewish person can not totally understand their experience.
That is pretty obvious.

@antelopevalley it wasn't obvious to me or others.
But as I said. In the spirit of moving on, I'll accept that maybe a misspeak/misunderstanding happened.

No one is playing a game of "who's had it worse". Many posters have highlighted antisemitism that they have experienced and agreed with DB. That isn't saying their experiences are worse than anyone else. And it isn't invalidated because the person who presented the programme has made some questionable jokes 25 years ago, which he has since apologised for.

Well on that we'll need to completely disagree.

Your minimising of Baddiel's behaviour is exactly part of the problem & hugely offensive to other ethnic minorities as we have told you & him repeatedly.

If there is ever a documentary about abuse of Roma, (unlikely - it's more likely that there will be a show mocking us - oh wait! )

& was fronted by a an anti-Semitic racist I would be shouting blue murder - not rushing to his defence or not caring about the messenger as long as "I was alright Jack"

Thankfully some wonderful Jewish commentators on here have done just that.

And no his pathetic last minute 25 years later apology before his best selling book & documentary doesn't cut it.

I don't forgive him.

Not playing games of " who had it worse"

I don't believe he (Baddiel) is doing that at all. I can see why people see it being divisive but I don't interpret it that way. It seems you do.

What I got from the program was that it made me think about the range and diversity of racism more. I'll stand in solidarity with any race or marginalised group but even at 50 I still have much to learn about other cultures, races, groups and how they experience oppression. It's been a valuable lesson.

I think it's most definitely the case where racism isn't equal. I enjoy certain privileges that others aren't afforded. It would be deeply disrespectful to not recognise this but East Asians, like Jews are also on the receiving end of 'acceptable' racism. Stuff that you can't get away with if from different ethnicities. That's not whinging or trying to outdo others but acknowledging the diversity of racism.

It's not meant to diminish anyone else's experiences.

It is not a competition as to who has it worst. Anti-semisitm is wrong and the Equality Act 2010 protects against it just as it also protects Chrsitians and others. I am Christian and have always supported the state of Israel, the best country in the Middle East and I wish the arab nations would copy its many strengths.

I see today we have record net migration up from about 240,000 to over 500,000 so clearly for many from abroad the UK is extremely attractive in part I think because are a fairly tolerant kind nation. I hope it stays that way.

Not one single Jewish poster has said that the Roma and the Jews aren't 'natural allies' or that we shouldn't support each other. Not one.

The thread has been successfully derailed and destroyed, but I didn't want that lie to be allowed to stand.

NO ONE on this thread has said or implied that racism and prejudice against Roma people and communities is OK. NO ONE.

It shouldn't be allowed to just keep telling outright lies about people, especially when you are accusing them of appalling things, lke being racist, or not caring about the persecution of other minority groups.

This was meant to be a thread to discuss antisemitism in the UK. Unfortunately I think the way it has been taken over and distorted, and the lies that have been told about Jews on here (such as the repeated and false claim that Jews are 'happy with racism towards other minorities') is more useful as an exemplar than as any kind of useful dialogue.

Being accused of racism with absolutely no foundation or evidence whatsoever is extremely upsetting and this whole thread has made me feel a lot sicker, weaker, sadder, and more pessimistic about antisemitism in the UK than I have done since 2019. I guess that was the intention.

I'm more interested in the message than the messenger, to be quite honest. anti-Roma racism is appalling, but that's another thread. If someone other than Baddiel had presented this what would we be discussing?

As for Arabs and Nazis as was brought up: this is quite a complex topic. What's often undiscussed in the UK is the British role. We're often taught, or given the impression, that Britain was a neutral arbiter of the mandate or that they were Zionist, because of the Balfour Declaration (although many Jews are still angry over Britain's refusal to allow more immigrants during the war). But the Mandat administration played both sides against each other, made contradictory promises. I've read historians argue that Britain made the situation worse and may have indirectly led to some of the riots during the Mandate period. That's really a whole other topic, but alliances between Arabs and Nazis can't be viewed outside the context of the Mandate and the war.

@BloodAndFire This thread is a good example of how antisemitism works in Britain.

(No apologies re quote as the excellent post by @amcha bears repeating)

Scratch the QAnon rubbish and you will also find the blood libel.

What's often undiscussed in the UK is the British role. We're often taught, or given the impression, that Britain was a neutral arbiter of the mandate or that they were Zionist, because of the Balfour Declaration (although many Jews are still angry over Britain's refusal to allow more immigrants during the war). But the Mandat administration played both sides against each other, made contradictory promises. I've read historians argue that Britain made the situation worse and may have indirectly led to some of the riots during the Mandate period.

That of course is because this whole discussion is, by definition, going on without the input of any Israelis - what you have on here are British Jews who are being forced to speak for Israelis even though they can't and shouldn't.

I am not an Israeli, but I have listened. If you listen to real Israelis - particularly those who have no connection with Britain - they blame Britain (and France) for a lot of the mess - but at least one view is that it was typical colonial powers drawing stupid boundaries - and they particularly blame the (British) Foreign Office as being "pro-Arab" and highly influenced by Lawrence of Arabia type mythology in privileging certain tribes or groups that they liked over other tribes and groups and giving them kingdoms.

But that is why you really need to talk to people who live this stuff. Trying to force British Jews into being spokespeople for the complexity on the ground is impossible. British Jews by and large don't know, don't live it, want to live in Britain and don't have the language tools to access most of the discussion. David Baddiel is rightly furious that he keeps being made into a straw man to defend a bunch of people with whom he has very little in common.

That doesn't mean Israelis don't have their own views and perspectives (multiple) - but you are not going to get them on here - not accurately. Israelis by and large live in Israel - you will only get to hear what they think if you go and talk to some of them. It is their lived experience, not that of British Jews - as they will tell you if you go as a British Jew and voice an opinion! loudly!

@antelopevalley Yes, it's the perfect example. Have sat and read every word of this thread now and there are at least 3 blatant antisemites on here and I can't believe MNHQ have not stepped in. They couch their language in whataboutery and deflection from the actual point of the documentary (and OP's thread). They wear their 'anti racist' credentials like a badge (real anti-racists don't need to tell people they're anti racist) and have baited and goaded Jews repeatedly. These people, generally from the left, think that because they are a) from the left, and b) vocal about their support of other minorities, therefore makes them naturally antiracist. Except they're not.

One PP has claimed that Jews have been given enough "evidence" on here and that they are basically imagining the antisemitism. Several (or maybe it's the same person giving herself a pat on the back) have repeatedly demanded Jews apologise for Baddiel's past racism, even though they have explicitly acknowledged and condemned it; they have done so in EXACTLY the same way Jews are held to account for Israel. These posters are as bigoted now in 2022 as Baddiel was in the 1990s. The delivery may be different, more couched in its language and written in a way that makes quite it hidden to non-Jews, but it's all the same nevertheless - racism.

I feel really, really anxious having read it all because it is so reflective of the leftwing antisemitism that has been festering away over the last 5 years. It has got worse and worse because it has become normalised. To minimise, downplay and refuse to acknowledge the antisemitism British Jews speak of, has become normalised. (One PP basically accused another of being a drama queen when highlighting the antisemtism she had to deal with). Gaslighting Jews has become normalised. And that's why this thread has been able to continue with barely any interference by MNHQ. Because subtle antisemitism has become normalised. Nevertheless, I hope this thread does not disappear because as has been pointed out, it's a really good example of how antisemitism has flourished in the UK recently.

I'm not going to name any names from this thread but it will be obvious to lurkers and those already active on the thread. I've come to accept these people will continue to refuse to actually listen, and that's just not going to change any time soon. Of course, if it was antisemitism explicitly coming from the right of the political spectrum, they're quite happy to call that out. But not if it's coming from the left or liberals. Just feel so defeated and devastated by it all. This is one of the most hideous threads I've ever read on here, but thankfully in amongst the goading, gaslighting and general arrogance there are some really considered, informative and thoughtful posters.

Oh and before a small group of bullies on this thread hit straight back with 'WHAT ABOUT BADDIEL', then yes, his past racism makes him completely and utterly inappropriate to deliver the message he has done (the message I 100% agree with). Is that statement OK for you or do you want us to start a completely new thread to publicly denounce David Baddiel and beg your forgiveness for HIS past transgressions???

You've written everything so eloquently, @namechangess 👏🏻

I cannot imagine how disheartening it must be to be Jewish and read this thread.

I don't think David Baddiel is the wrong person to do the documentary - because he wrote the book and he has triggered the conversation. "I'd listen to Jews talk about the racism they experience if the right person started the conversation" is just another way to dismiss antisemitism. Who would be the right person? No one except Michael Rosen as far as I can see.

Thank you @namechangess . I take heart from the posters who have shown empathy and interest, whilst there are bullies and gaslighters they have shown their true colours.

Thank you @namechangess

Yes @antelopevalley it really is.

And yes @FloresApparuerunt it's been absolutely horrible. I'm trying to see the silver lining, that it's showed quite a few non--Jewish posters and lurkers what it's really like if you scratch the surface.

Still feel bloody sick to my stomach about it all though..

Yes, it's been rather unpleasant (am British/American Jewish). I had to leave entirely at one point.

I very much dislike being asked to be accountable or explain anything Israel does. My views on the subject are really irrelevant: I feel I don't owe random people an opinion just because I am Jewish, or have an obligation to have a particular point of view.

@ScribblingPixie Yes, Michael is an 'acceptable Jew' to the Left. As is St Miriam, because the litmus test was "do you support Corbyn". If not, you're a liar that imagines antisemitism on the left. Look what happened to Momentum founder Jon Lansman as soon as he started highlighting antisemitsm on the left. His former disciples turned on him quicker than a pint of milk in the sun.