David Badiel - Jews Don't Count. Shocked

[Everanewbie]

AIBU to be disappointed and upset at the blindspot for antisemitism that was highlighted in last night's excellent documentary? The Leigh Francis part was especially revealing to me. The (quite correct) groveling apologies for the Michael Jackson, Craig David and Mel B characters were a contrast to the defining silence on the David Badiel character.

What is more, the reaction from the left-wing commentators (Owen Jones, et al) on twitter seem to suggest that Badiel says other racism doesn't exist, which feels like a deliberate and willful misrepresentation.

@mamacattiva That is true. Just are there have been genocides of Christians.
But in Britain there are more people living with the impact of the Holocaust than any other genocide. I had a neighbour who had the tattooed numbers of a survivor on her arm. A Jewish friend had lots of his extended family murdered in the Holocaust. I am not Jew

I am not Jewish but still know people directly affected by the Holocaust. I don't know anyone directly affected by other genocides.

@beachcitygirl I did want to say though, that while I agree that there are other aspects of this thread that are a derailment, I don't think a discussion of the Roma is.
I am (obviously) not a good spokesperson as it is not my culture and tradition, but the Roma are often the forgotten victims of the Holocaust - and earlier.
Roma too were often accused of poisoning the wells etc. And I fully agree it is another example of discrimination that is not taken seriously.

According to the link here (and it is from the US holocaust museum, so I hope they got it right)
encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/roma-gypsies-in-prewar-europe

the Roma orginated in the Punjab region of India but have been in Europe since at least the 10th centure CE and there is more information there. I imagine they talked to Roma for the details - but you might have better links, and I think people on here would be genuinely interested.

I didn't know David Baddiel made any statements about Roma - I am very surprised (it is not what I would have expected, he has a certain level of ignorance - including about Jewish tradition and practice, but I wouldn't have expected that). I think what most Jewish people feel, however, is that particularly his book, articulates the issue vis a vis Jews very well and he has the public presence to actually publicise it in a way others can't. Who else would have been able to get on television like this and actually reach people?

What we really need are Roma voices, speaking for themselves, about themselves. I would certainly be very interested, and I am sure others on this thread would - for an equivalent book/television programme or even links, that talks about the experience of being Roma through history and in modern Britain.

You're conflating totally different things

I completely agree with you that the Rohingya genocide (and it is a genocide, not the way the word is bandied about in the context of Israel adn Palestine) has been ignored by the world in comparison to the level of atrocities which is terrible but I don't agree this shows anything that you're trying to argue.

I would argue that while the majority of the Rohingya are Muslim, this is not a religious genocide but an ethnic one. There are Hindu Rohingya too, albeit a minority and they ahve been targeted too. There are also other Muslim ethnic groups in Myanmar who have not been targeted in the same way as the Rohingya. Plus there are many other non-Muslim ethnic groups who have also been targeted by the Myanmar regime, including to the level of genocide, like the Karen people. Myanmar is a good example of where ethnic supremacy ideology can lead.

Plus I don't think that the Rohingya genocide is ignored because it is mainly Muslim victims. It's ignored because it's far and they're poor and the refugees aren't going to come to Europe. Many other examples of the same (e.g. the civil war in Sri Lanka and the atrocities against the Tamils but so many others). The Holocause was also ignored and downplayed at first by the way. And, indeed, there are many Holocaust deniers out there too (plus Jews get told off for going on about it too much).

What is intersting is that I've never seen a Buddhist have to apologise for Myanmar and Sri Lanka before they can speak about their own rights. I've never seen police outside a Buddhist temple. Why is that?

This is what I’m interested in - why do many Jews feel this way despite so much evidence to the contrary? Of course you are hyper aware of your own discrimination, but there is no need to dismiss others lived experiences and evidence that challenges your perceptions. Nobody has said antisemitism isn’t racism (not in this thread anyway, of course there are people who do) and it should be tackled - which it repeatedly is at a much higher level than other forms of discrimination (which I’m not sure how anyone can deny when looking at recent UK politics and popular culture).

I’ve spoken about Muslims reporting being mocked and ignored within the Labour Party too (I won’t even go into the Conservative Party, we all know well enough already) but the difference between the outcomes for both groups in the party are stark. The Labour Party is also the political home of many Muslim communities, but unfortunately we are not afforded the same actions that were taken to oust the antisemites when we repeatedly report racism and discrimination across the board.

What is intersting is that I've never seen a Buddhist have to apologise for Myanmar and Sri Lanka before they can speak about their own rights. I've never seen police outside a Buddhist temple. Why is that?

The UK places sanctions on and condemns Myanmar rather than fully backing them, unlike Israel. Also some people conflate Jews with the Jewish State, including some Jews (thinking of beloved Miriam) and feel they need to speak out against the country’s actions, which further conflates the issue.

Very obviously, what that poster meant was that Black people are identifiable by others as being Black, whereas you can't necessarily tell that someone is Jewish by looking at them.

This point has indeed been made many times by Black people explaining how relentless the racism is that they are subjected to.

No one could possibly suggest that poster was saying 'all black people look the same' unless they were posting in extremely bad faith.

I haven't had yet had the time to listen to Baddiel show so I'm only commenting on my own experiences.

I do see that extreme antisemitic incidents and outright abuse is most times called out fairly.
However the underlying anti Jewish rhetoric and comments such as "Jews are cheap, money hungry" etc. are surprisingly socially accepted. This has to change.

And for those asking about the Palestine/Israeli conflict and are curious enough to hear the Israeli perspective check out Rudy Rochman on youtube and instagram @ rudy_israel

Oh, Arabs were actively engaged with Hitler and Mussolini. Mein Kampf was translated to arabic and is still a point of a reference.

This thread is so telling. :)

Btw. UK has its own history of pogroms, exile. Beginning of so called 'hostile environment' for migrants was about Jews who were trying to escape pogroms in Russian Empire.

@beachcitygirl

One poster even told a Muslim woman she had no lived experience of racism.

Can you quote this?

Another subtly suggested all blacks people look the same.

No they didn't. They described how you cannot tell if someone is Jewish by looking at them. You are extraordinarily likely to be able to tell someone is a person of colour by looking at them.

You're extraordinarily likely to be able to tell if someone is a woman by looking at them. Would you think that saying that is the same as saying all women look the same?

This is what I’m interested in - why do many Jews feel this way despite so much evidence to the contrary?

Nice gaslighting.

@amcha thank you for your considered post. I quite agree x

Thank you. I am always cautious about googling words I see on here, because once or twice I did and was sorry afterwards!

Was the @beachcitygirl post that was deleted in response to this one? I didn't see it before deletion so wasn't sure if they've had a chance to answer these questions (in a way that doesn't break talk guidelines) yet?

Oh, Arabs were actively engaged with Hitler and Mussolini. Mein Kampf was translated to arabic and is still a point of a reference.

Gilbert Achcar writes much better than me
so I’ll directly quote him:

”In the first place, there is no such thing as Arabs. To speak in the singular of an Arab discourse is an aberration. The Arab world is driven by a multiplicity of points of view. At the time, one could single out four major ideological currents, which extend from western liberalism, through Marxism and nationalism, to Islamic fundamentalism. In regard to these four, two, namely western liberalism and Marxism, clearly rejected Nazism, in part on shared grounds (such as the heritage of enlightenment thinkers, and the denunciation of Nazism as a form of racism), and partially because of their geopolitical affiliations.

On this issue, Arab nationalism is contradictory. If one looks into it closely, however, the number of nationalistic groups which identified themselves with Nazi propaganda turns out to be quite scaled-down. There is only one clone of Nazism in the Arab world, namely the Syrian social national party, which was founded by a Lebanese Christian, Antoun Saadeh. The Young Egypt Party flirted for a time with Nazism, but it was a fickle, weathercock party. As to accusations that the Ba'ath party was, from the very outset in the 1940s, inspired by Nazism, they are completely false.”

I know that there were huge propaganda programs across the Arab world by Nazi Germany and Italy, relatives have spoken about it previously, and the Nazi party gained some support this way as they were led to believe that Hitler would help to end the colonial powers exercised by the French and British in Arab countries (a joint enemy), not because the Arab world had a hatred for Jews. Hitler thought very lowly of people across the Arab world because he believed they were racial inferior to him too.

No, it wasn't, @monsteramunch

Thanks @ScribblingPixie hopefully they can come back to my post as I think they massively misunderstood what a PP was saying and it would be refreshing for someone to say ah ok I got the wrong end of the stick rather than doubling down.

Thank you very much. I'm sure I read about this a long time ago, but I didn't realize that there was any trace of it left.

@BloodAndFire im sorry you feel you have to leave. I was enjoying the thread early on but since it took a turn I’ve not wanted to post.

it’s been very informative, both the measure discussion part, and the not so measured part. I’ve learnt from seeing both.

all the best

Hmm, interesting that you equate Myanmar and Israel which is clearly and obviously not the case to anyone with any knowledge of these countries and the associated conflicts.

But you also seem to be suggesting that not only are they the same in terms of human rights abuses but that Israel has some kind of unwarranted influence over UK foreign policy...

However, that wasn't my question at all. I asked why Buddhists - even those from Myanmar and Sri Lanka - are not asked to account for the actions of nationalist Buddhists in those Buddhist countries? Why are there no terrorist threats against Buddhist temples because of Myanmar or Sri Lanka? And the answer? It's justified to do this to Jews because there are sanctions against Myanmar.

And then victim blaming, blaming Jews for THEMSELVES conflating their own identities, so you can't blame others for doing the same. Of couse, many Jews identify with Israel, it is the only Jewish country in the world, our safety net for when things go tits up for us again so we don't end up with our children being murdered in gas chambers again. It doesn't mean they are responsible for Israel's actions or anyone should expect them to be. It's an individual choice.

You're really just proving the point you're arguing against!!!

Mammacattiva - I think you ang Achcar are downplaying the role of the Palestinian leader, Haj Amin al-Husseini, who spent the war in Berlin, recruited a special SS division of Bosnian Muslims, and was a joint organiser of the pro-Nazi Rashid Ali revolt in Iraq, including anti-semitic pogroms that killed hundreds of Jews in Baghdad.

@monsteramunch I can't post that one as it's been deleted. (re no lived experience)

re the subtle inference all blacks look the same. Maybe the poster simply was careless with their wording (as anyone can be) I for example used "crocodile tears" when I should have said "I doubt your sincerity" which was wrong of me.

I was not the only one to take that inference, if it was not intended that way, then I'm prepared to accept that in good faith & offer apology.

My main point still stands and I do note @monstermunch that you (and many commentators) haven't addressed my question about Baddiel's racism to the Roma community and why that it's ok for
The Jewish members of this thread to consider him a suitable and appropriate spokesperson in this matter. ? Do you have any comment?

It is important to note that I do not hold you or anyone responsible for his words but I do have an issue with him being applauded & feted & quoted in a good light.

For those who shared the link from the JC with his apology, thank you & I feel the paper handled it with compassion & dignity. I wish he'd seen fit to make that apology more public & sooner, I and none of my family even knew he had made it.
Showing that sharp words of racial hate carry more quickly and do more lasting damage than can be comprehended or that an apology hastily given before a best selling book & documentary doesn't carry much weight with those harmed.

But it's quite the rap sheet of racism he has.

Black face
Shaming Eastern European women
Anti Roma slurs
Sexist slurs
Ableist slurs
Fat shaming

Thank you very much to @Lunar270 @amcha @FloydPepper & many others for their considered kindness & consideration as to how triggering this man fronting such a show was.

Once again. I always seen the Roma community and Jews as natural ally's - I find it distressing so many don't.

@beachcitygirl I have googled and can't find Baddeil saying anything about the Roma community. So what did he say and when?